All purpose trade/roster building thread part 12

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MinJaBen

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Just to chum the waters a bit, what about a guy like Malkin? Elite player, better than Necas will ever be, but aging. Just 2 years left on the contract is also a problem, but it's also 2 years of Malkin and a chance at more. Pens get younger and start to plan for the future with both Malkin and Crosby aging out, we get a hell of a win now player and mentor for Svech.
No way that would happen on salary alone. Part of Martin's value is that he is ELC for two more years. Gino, not so much....
 

Navin R Slavin

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Yup. Necas is the furthest thing from being available. Literally nothing short of the team trading for him getting so ripped off value wise that the rest of the league would mock them mercilessly until they ended up folding their franchise out of complete shame and embarrassment.

So what are we getting from the Wild for him, then?
 
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Canes

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John Gibson and Jack Eichel are probably the only guys that I would seriously consider trading Necas for, but both are extreme longshots to be dealt this offseason, especially Gibson.
It's probably the other way around, Eichel is basically untouchable. There's no way they become a better team any time soon by trading him. What's left of their fanbase would completely riot. Anaheim is rebuilding, so while Gibson's value sort of went down this season and it would be dumb to sell low, I could see them trading him for the right offer but I'm not sure I trade Necas for him myself. Not with the way goalies have burned us before. I overpay a UFA like Lehner before I give up an asset like Necas.
 

cptjeff

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If there is some way the Canes can acquire Gibson then Necas is easily expendable IMO. In 3-4 years Necas would still be the 4th or 5th best forward on the roster. Deal that piece for a locked-in 27 year old top-10 goalie? Yes and thank you very much.
I'm just very, very nervous about trading for a goalie, no matter how good they seem. Goalies, goalie coaches, and the team systems they play in are so interwoven that it's really hard to predict what happens when they move to another team.

I mean, I get that sometimes you do have to go out and get a guy, but giving up a big piece for a voodoo roll of the dice is just nervewracking to me.
 

MinJaBen

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I'm just very, very nervous about trading for a goalie, no matter how good they seem. Goalies, goalie coaches, and the team systems they play in are so interwoven that it's really hard to predict what happens when they move to another team.

I mean, I get that sometimes you do have to go out and get a guy, but giving up a big piece for a voodoo roll of the dice is just nervewracking to me.

I get the anxiety. This organization doesn’t have the best track record in that regard. But, given the example above, calling Gibson a role of the dice is a stretch.
 
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MinJaBen

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ANY goalie is a roll of the dice on a a new team. Look at Bob and Florida, for crying out loud. The guy has two Vezinas in his closet.
Bob was living off his reputation in Columbus the last three years. Moving to Florida just made him richer, it didn’t substantially effect his play.
 

Bunch of Jurcos

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How fair would a Nedeljkovic for Raanta straight up deal be? Ned doesn't seem like he will start here, Arizona needs cap space for Hall, and Reimer can play for Charlotte/Chicago and get the call if Raanta gets hurt.
 

Nikishin Go Boom

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How fair would a Nedeljkovic for Raanta straight up deal be? Ned doesn't seem like he will start here, Arizona needs cap space for Hall, and Reimer can play for Charlotte/Chicago and get the call if Raanta gets hurt.
We’ll be short on space without subtracting a forward or a defender, assuming we are re-signing Fleury and Foegele.

if Zona values him as a decent backup then they might do it.
 

MinJaBen

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How fair would a Nedeljkovic for Raanta straight up deal be? Ned doesn't seem like he will start here, Arizona needs cap space for Hall, and Reimer can play for Charlotte/Chicago and get the call if Raanta gets hurt.

Seems like a Raanta for Reimer is a better option. Arizona still saves space (and cash if we do it after Reimer's bonus is paid) and we save a bit of cap over your proposal; something that is not trivial for us anymore.
 

Bunch of Jurcos

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Seems like a Raanta for Reimer is a better option. Arizona still saves space (and cash if we do it after Reimer's bonus is paid) and we save a bit of cap over your proposal; something that is not trivial for us anymore.

You make good points, especially about Reimer's bonus. My thinking here is that Raanta is a bit injury prone and we know Reimer can hold down the fort for a bit. We aren't so sure with Ned. Also Ned is a easy sell. Calder Cup winner, AHL goalie of the year, etc. Might be more appealing than Reimer. Plus they have an established starter so they wouldn't have to pay Ned much over league minimum to fight for the backup job. If they were willing to take Reimer, your idea is a good one.
 
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Chrispy

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You make good points, especially about Reimer's bonus. My thinking here is that Raanta is a bit injury prone and we know Reimer can hold down the fort for a bit. We aren't so sure with Ned. Also Ned is a easy sell. Calder Cup winner, AHL goalie of the year, etc. Might be more appealing than Reimer. Plus they have an established starter so they wouldn't have to pay Ned much over league minimum to fight for the backup job. If they were willing to take Reimer, your idea is a good one.

After Reimer's bonus is paid:

Ned will make $750K salary on a one-way deal next year.
Reimer will make $850K salary on a one-way deal next year.

If cap isn't an issue, it's negligible. It only matters if Arizona thinks Ned is a future starter.
 

Canes

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If there is some way the Canes can acquire Gibson then Necas is easily expendable IMO. In 3-4 years Necas would still be the 4th or 5th best forward on the roster. Deal that piece for a locked-in 27 year old top-10 goalie? Yes and thank you very much.
I wouldn't be so sure of him being a top 10 goalie here. I don't care how bad Anaheim has become, he wasn't even close to being top 10 this year and last year he arguably wasn't either. It would be a big roll of the dice either way so I don't think Necas is easily expendable in this scenario. I think most GMs agree which is why they trade mostly futures and spare parts for top goalies whenever they become available, not already budding potential top line talent. Maybe if Necas were still only a prospect they'd look at making that deal since it'd be similar to Schneider for 9th overall which became Bo Horvat. But I doubt New Jersey would have traded Horvat straight up for Schneider had they taken him and he developed similarly in New Jersey as he has in Vancouver. Those type of trades simply don't happen, and it's because goalies are extremely hard to value.
 
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My Special Purpose

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You folks all know I've been around this franchise since 1974 when I was seven-years-old and went to my first game in Springfield, MA.

In all those years, I've written a *lot* of stuff about the WhalerCanes, on the ice and off, some of it for money, a lot of it for free, and about all of it worthless. These last few weeks I've fallen down a rabbit hole of old hockey highlights on YouTube and something hit me like an absolute ton of bricks. It's nothing new, we all know it. We say stuff like "organizational blind spot" and "we can always improve," but I don't think anything we've ever said even begins to understand the depth of the issue.

In nearly 50 seasons of hockey going back to 1972-73 ... it's *always* been about goaltending.

I know, I know, not exactly rocket science, and it's *always* always been about goaltending for every team. But this is totally unique, and I dare anyone to prove any differently. I don't think any team in any sport has ever ignored a critical position as much as we've done with our goaltending position for nearly 50 years.

I knew the Whalers of the early-80s were terrible. I went to a lot of the games. I remember the scores. I remember their record. They were 21-41-18 in 1981-82. There's no possible spin for that. Except that I just watched nearly all of two games from that season, at TOR (John Garrett in net) and vs. PHI (Greg Millen). They lost 7-4 (scoring two late garbage goals to make it look closer than it was) and 5-2 (with an empty-netter against), respectively.

But here's the thing. They were *very good* in both games. Shockingly so. They moved the puck quickly and with precision. They crashed the net. They were fast and responsible defensively. Way better than I remembered them. It's just that every single shot against went in. And on the off-chance the goalies stopped the first chance, their rebound control was atrocious. Garrett in particular would get benched in my kid's league if he kicked out rebounds like he did in this game. Millen was the up-and-coming, 24-year-old stud that season, playing 55 games and posting a .872 sv. pct. and a -0.62 goals saved above average.

The next season was an absolute disaster. Most people -- including myself -- pinned the 19-54-7 record on what was then the worst trade in franchise history, sending Mark Howe to PHI for Risto Siltanen and Greg Adams. And yeah, that hurt. But the offense added Mark Johnson and got a full season of the blossoming Ron Francis, and Siltanen wasn't *that* bad. But Millen -- in 60 games -- had an .863 sv. pct. and a ludicrous -26.25 GSAA. Again, in watching another game against Philly from this season, they flat-out looked like the better team *until* Philly put a shot on net.

Anyhow, it occurred to me that, if anything, I'd been *understating* the WhalerCanes lack of goaltending during their entire existence. It's beyond possible that the entire franchise history of failure is really all about the goalies. All the articles, all the analysis, two of the worst trades in NHL history, all the GMs and coaches and owners, the move from Hartford. It all comes down to one thing: We've never had a goalie.

I know Mike Liut was great in 1986-87, we won the division and he was second in the Vezina voting (and third in the Hart), and Cam had a great 2008-09 (finishing seventh in the Vezina voting). But that's it, in terms of elite goaltending. Two one-off seasons.

I know this isn't exactly breaking new ground, but I think the takeaway here isn't that we've never had consistently good goaltending, it's how good this franchise has been *with the exception of goaltending* from the beginning. My entire childhood has been rocked. Instead of joking about how the Whalers sucked when I was growing up, I'm wondering how good they could have been if they only had Patrick Roy, or Mike Richter, or even Liut for his entire career, instead of 3 1/2 seasons in his 30s.
 

bleedgreen

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I take it you weren’t a fan of Sean Burke? I thought he gave the Whale a chance to win every night for five years or so. Other than Liut, Burke was the best goalie I thought we’ve ever had. Maybe the stats don’t reflect it but he was playing solo out there for most of his time.
 
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Chan790

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I take it you weren’t a fan of Sean Burke? I thought he gave the Whale a chance to win every night for five years or so. Other than Liut, Burke was the best goalie I thought we’ve ever had. Maybe the stats don’t reflect it but he was playing solo out there for most of his time.

Oh god, some of the defenses the Whalers put up in front of Burke would have been bad...for the AHL.
 

My Special Purpose

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I take it you weren’t a fan of Sean Burke? I thought he gave the Whale a chance to win every night for five years or so. Other than Liut, Burke was the best goalie I thought we’ve ever had. Maybe the stats don’t reflect it but he was playing solo out there for most of his time.

I'll admit I barely followed the early 90s Whalers. From the time I moved to Raleigh (1989) until the time they followed me (1997), I was really more interested in women and tequila. I caught the scores and watched the highlights on ESPN, but I almost got over them forever.
 
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bleedgreen

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I'll admit I barely followed the early 90s Whalers. From the time I moved to Raleigh (1989) until the time they followed me (1997), I was really more interested in women and tequila. I caught the scores and watched the highlights on ESPN, but I almost got over them forever.
I think you could make an argument for Burke being our best goalie ever to be honest, they were just so bad they couldn't achieve any team success. Mrazek last season had a classic season as well, but like you said with others it seems to be a one off.
 
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WreckingCrew

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You folks all know I've been around this franchise since 1974 when I was seven-years-old and went to my first game in Springfield, MA.

In all those years, I've written a *lot* of stuff about the WhalerCanes, on the ice and off, some of it for money, a lot of it for free, and about all of it worthless. These last few weeks I've fallen down a rabbit hole of old hockey highlights on YouTube and something hit me like an absolute ton of bricks. It's nothing new, we all know it. We say stuff like "organizational blind spot" and "we can always improve," but I don't think anything we've ever said even begins to understand the depth of the issue.

In nearly 50 seasons of hockey going back to 1972-73 ... it's *always* been about goaltending.

I know, I know, not exactly rocket science, and it's *always* always been about goaltending for every team. But this is totally unique, and I dare anyone to prove any differently. I don't think any team in any sport has ever ignored a critical position as much as we've done with our goaltending position for nearly 50 years.
I'm not sure "ignored" is necessarily quite the best word. I mean, we've obviously (as the Canes) had Irbe & Ward who were both pretty great at their peak...I can't speak to the Whalers as I didn't watch much NHL hockey then and it was mostly before my time. And holy **** have we TRIED to get good goalies by taking some flyers and gambles (just look at all the goalies we've had in the past decade)...I think for some reason this franchise just fails to identify the talent OR somehow destroys them. Ward is the last NHL quality goalie we drafted. Now obviously JR didn't care much about drafting or prospects, and even moreso when it came to goalies, so that was an especially dark time while we rode Ward into the ground. We've reused, recycled, tried our AHL goalies, and just nothing has worked out very well for a long time now. Guys like Lack and Darling LOOKED like they could become the guys to make the jump, and they absolutely imploded here. We do finally have some decent darts with Maki & Koch (and a few longshots), but they're a few years out at best. Granted when there are goalies like Lehner out there for the taking and we go with Mrazek/Reimer that definitely brings up some questions about ignoring the glaring goalie problem, BUT we don't know if the failure was our end or just no interest from his part (same with other high-profile UFAs and goalies)
 
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