All Purpose PK Subban Discussion Thread Part 2

[drwpreds]

2 games, 2 bad plays that led directly to goals against though. For all the good he's done offensively, he's not good defensively right now.

One thing that always fascinates me with Subban is it always seems to me that he is incredibly unlucky when it comes to mistakes leading to goals.

Seems like every single time he makes a big mistake it always winds up in the net. Josi and Ellis can make 5 mistakes and nothing- but the first one Subban makes it in the net.

It probably isn't reality but it sure seems that way at times......

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

One thing that always fascinates me with Subban is it always seems to me that he is incredibly unlucky when it comes to mistakes leading to goals.

Seems like every single time he makes a big mistake it always winds up in the net. Josi and Ellis can make 5 mistakes and nothing- but the first one Subban makes it in the net.

It probably isn't reality but it sure seems that way at times......

Part of the reason it seems that way... at least if you are watching the game on TV or the highlights after the game... is that the commentators will more often point out Subban's mistake and rarely mention those that other defenders make. Even if it does end up in the net for either.

Although Subban's mistakes are also sometimes just a little more Dramatic, to say the least. The direct turnover or weird lay-down play or whatever that just look goofy. While Josi or Ellis may quietly miss their check or let somebody walk out of the corner or not take their man in front 5 times... but they aren't flailing around looking like bambi on ice while doing it. Subban does a lot better actually on most of his d-zone plays than they do, but when he does mess up it's usually hard to miss.

 

[triggrman]

Part of the reason it seems that way... at least if you are watching the game on TV or the highlights after the game... is that the commentators will more often point out Subban's mistake and rarely mention those that other defenders make. Even if it does end up in the net for either.

Although Subban's mistakes are also sometimes just a little more Dramatic, to say the least. The direct turnover or weird lay-down play or whatever that just look goofy. While Josi or Ellis may quietly miss their check or let somebody walk out of the corner or not take their man in front 5 times... but they aren't flailing around looking like bambi on ice while doing it. Subban does a lot better actually on most of his d-zone plays than they do, but when he does mess up it's usually hard to miss.

PK homers are so easy to find. These type post are some of the worst parts of being a member here.

 

[Pred303]

the reason is simple. subban tends to make more highly visible, worse mistakes than our other defenders. mistakes as last man back, mistakes right in front of the goalie. more dangerous, worse mistakes than others having turnovers in the neutral zone or in the corners. that's why more of his mistakes wind up in the back of the net. because they tend to be worse.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Fixed the problem.

 

[triggrman]

Funny 'cuz the laughable PK haters are also so easy to find. Strange how that works, eh?

Yeah, we only point out the mistakes he makes because we hate him. We love the mistakes Josi and Ellis make.

Dude, get real. I've called Josi and Ellis out numerous times for stupid ass plays. No one gets butt hurt over that though. Pk fans come up with all these "they're just picking on Subban" excuses.

There are some PK haters on the main boards, most here though, are straight Preds fans.

 

[Drake744]

Yeah, we only point out the mistakes he makes because we hate him. We love the mistakes Josi and Ellis make.

Dude, get real. I've called Josi and Ellis out numerous times for stupid ass plays. No one gets butt hurt over that though. Pk fans come up with all these "they're just picking on Subban" excuses.

There are some PK haters on the main boards, most here though, are straight Preds fans.

I really like PK and could probably be labeled an apologist BUT, when he first got here we found out how polarizing the guy is and it was so confusing. It was just like good lord how are Montreal fans treating one player this strongly....... now it's happening here too. I still don't get it.

 

[101st_fan]

High profile players make high profile plays ... both good and bad. Message board residents tend to focus on one end of the spectrum and post accordingly.

 

[zhok]

PK is the most volatile player on the team-- the highs are high, and lows are are low.

 

[Drake744]

PK is the most volatile player on the team-- the high are high, and lows are are low.

Forsberg and Fiala come to mind being in the same category but no one seems to care. Well, Fiala maybe, but still.

 

[zhok]

Forsberg and Fiala come to mind being in the same category but no one seems to care. Well, Fiala maybe, but still.

Fiala hasn't had a high in a long time. Forseberg can go cold, but he doesn't usually have lapses in judgment and effort.

 

[Drake744]

Fiala hasn't had a high in a long time. Forseberg can go cold, but he doesn't usually have lapses in judgment and effort.

Subban doesn't have lapses in effort either. Fiala not having a high in a long time is kind of what I mean. When he's on he's awesome but he's usually a disappointment

 

[drwpreds]

the reason is simple. subban tends to make more highly visible, worse mistakes than our other defenders. mistakes as last man back, mistakes right in front of the goalie. more dangerous, worse mistakes than others having turnovers in the neutral zone or in the corners. that's why more of his mistakes wind up in the back of the net. because they tend to be worse.

Some of what you say is true (although I would also say that part of the reason for that is he often shoulders more responsibility and tougher assignments on the whole).

But there are plenty of cases where Josi and Ellis make glaring mistakes just like Subban does- maybe not as many but they happen- yet they never seem to lead directly to goals, at least not nearly as much. And as we all know, when their mistakes do go in the net they don't get anywhere near the level of scrutiny....

I stand by my statement that Subban has had some rotten luck.

Anyway, just my perception, nothing more, nothing less...

 

[Gnashville]

I still think there is a little bias towards PK since he was traded for. Ellis, Ekholm, Josi, Bitetto even Hamhuis were all guys we followed after they were drafted by the Predators and are “our guys” so to speak. I still remember watching those highlights of Josi with those horrible uniforms, and watching Ellis in Windsor whereas Subban was aquired in a trade for a very popular player in Weber.

It’s not the same as with Forsberg who was also traded for but he never actually played for Washington. Johansen is probably the forward that is like that.
We tend to defend “our guys” more so than guys aquired from other organizations. I find myself enamored with Colton Sissons recently over Kyle Turris.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

High profile players make high profile plays ... both good and bad. Message board residents tend to focus on one end of the spectrum and post accordingly.

Part of it is reading too. Message board residents don't just post slanted, but they also read other people's posts in a slanted fashion based on their own biases. I put 76 in my user title. One might guess that I'm a Subban fan. He's probably my 3rd favourite Pred atm behind Arvidsson and Sissons. Lately, that is mostly for off-ice persona more than on-ice, but I am still convinced based on his stretch last season and in the playoffs that when he's at his best, he can be our best overall defender. But I've also posted plenty of criticisms of him, usually pointing out exactly the same things that other people do about him - people who may sit somewhere else on the PK-fan spectrum than I do. And there is definitely a tendency for people to gloss over that and jump on any perceived praise or defense of him instead.

I can see first hand the widespread perception still that Subban is some run and gun rover style of player with no defense to his game. It's still there. Maybe not among Preds fans. And it HAS been promoted by the media. And people do buy into it. Why wouldn't they, if they have nothing much else to go on. And the Subban I've seen is just nothing like that depiction. Which also contributes to the polarization in my opinion. Because he's just a fundamentally more sound defensive player than he seems to get credit for in the general view. And people understandably have trouble believing that given some of the mind-numbingly crazy-bad defensive plays he makes. It's not the typical combination of traits in a player. So it adds to the polarization. And people will read a post like that and say, wow, what a biased PK-lover. And others will read something opposite and say, wow, what a biased PK-hater. Because he does seem to have tendencies in his game that are not usually found in the same player at the same time. And without taking the time to watch his full game long enough or without taking time to walk through the seeming dichotomies, it's easy to skim a post and take an attack or defence of PK away from it. And those who see both sides rarely have the patience to get into trying to expand on the subject anymore.

 

[triggrman]

I study defensemen, it's my favorite part of the game and the position I played for 35+ years. Here's my take on PK.

Pros
Has a great shot, and great hands, without the puck he can shutdown with the best of them. Can be dynamic in every zone. Edge work is incredible. Board work is second only to Ekholm. Can play the pest role.

Cons
Likely the slowest of our top 4 defensemen in straight up speed. Has some incredible brain farts, usually when trying to do too much. These happen at really bad times when he's pressing, with or without the puck.

 

[Genesis76]

One thing that always fascinates me with Subban is it always seems to me that he is incredibly unlucky when it comes to mistakes leading to goals.

Seems like every single time he makes a big mistake it always winds up in the net. Josi and Ellis can make 5 mistakes and nothing- but the first one Subban makes it in the net.

It probably isn't reality but it sure seems that way at times......

Yeah some racist people had the same problem back when he was in mtl

 

[LCPreds]

I have friends who will start texting the minute Subban goofs and it leads to a goal. I didn’t get a single text the other night when Josi gave up that back door.

I get what some of you guys are saying. You call out everyone and I understand that. But there truly is a group of people out there who really dislike pk for whatever reason they may have.

 

[BigFatCat999]

Does it make me bad for wanting the Preds to trade Subban to Toronto for the Montreal shitstorm?

 

[Dave is a killer]

Does it make me bad for wanting the Preds to trade Subban to Toronto for the Montreal ****storm?

Nope

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I have friends who will start texting the minute Subban goofs and it leads to a goal. I didn’t get a single text the other night when Josi gave up that back door.

I get what some of you guys are saying. You call out everyone and I understand that. But there truly is a group of people out there who really dislike pk for whatever reason they may have.

This is it exactly. And listen to how many people are booing him in other arenas just whenever he touches the puck in general. He has never done anything to warrant that kind of universal antipathy from whatever segment of the NHL fan population. He's not getting suspensions or running guys or doing much in the way of classic "villain" stuff on the ice. He gets a lot of love from some fans too... but that part of it I can at least understand - his personality, the charity work and all that. But it ends up in a lot of extra emotion both ways wrapped up in the polarization around him - and people just trying to offer a balanced perspective can get caught in the crossfire.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Does it make me bad for wanting the Preds to trade Subban to Toronto for the Montreal ****storm?

I'm guessing they aren't going to be in a cap situation to trade for PK, alas. I don't know when or if the Preds or going to be in a position to trade PK. I can imagine it coming. Hard to tell where he's going career-wise - seems to be slowing, and certainly not "worth" the $9M on the ice. But that is a pretty short term trend overall because he was still our best D in the playoff run last year and 3rd in Norris voting. At 30 it wouldn't be entirely fair to take this season's dropoff as the final word on him. Yet.

They've got 3 more years with him locked up in this group. It is hard to imagine them going long-term on him after this deal, though. Which then kind of pushes the decision point forward towards the expansion draft instead. Because then you figure him or Ellis have to go, and Josi will be getting a big new contract too. So it's going to be a theme that comes up repeatedly over the next 2 years for sure. Lots that can happen in the meantime. But we'll keep evaluating and re-evaluating until things settle out.

Of course, what would be nice... PK gets back in Norris form, figures out how to get a little leaner and quicker and more dynamic in his game again, gets his focus fully on his on-ice performance, continues to love things in Nashville, wins a Cup here, and maybe ultimately retires here with a 4- or 5-year extension at a "traditional" Poile cap-steal number for the long term. I'll take that. But of course that's probably asking for a little too much.

 

[Drake744]

I obviously don't know what it's like to be in Montreal and the way hockey culture works up there and blah blah blah so I'm not sure why some people there disliked him but as far as it goes here, I think it's one of two things. It's either that people don't like him being in the public eye and seeking out attention because let's face it, that's not a hockey thing, or it's because some people deep down can't get over that he took Weber's place. I think there are some here that will pretty much say that PK better be perfect if we gave up Weber for him and that if he isn't perfect, they'll say "well if both guys are flawed why can't we just still have Shea?"

Yes, I believe race plays a part because with the demographics of hockey being the way they are, there will instantly be a microscope on him, for better or worse. I don't believe there are a high number of people that dislike him because of his skin, but I believe the fact that he is black and very open to media (in a sport that is traditionally neither one of those things) causes more attention to be paid to him, which causes people to see him as a hype machine, which then often causes more scrutiny than he deserves and quite honestly more credit than he sometimes deserves as well. I'll leave it at that. Holy run-on sentence, Batman.

 

[LCPreds]

One thing I'm a bit baffled by are the amount of fans who will boo Subban around the league. Why would Colorado fans boo him?

PK seems to do quite a lot of good off the ice and as previously noted I have no idea what he has done on the ice to really irk fans around the league. You'd think a guy like Tom Wilson would get a lot more boos than PK, right?

 

[Drake744]

One thing I'm a bit baffled by are the amount of fans who will boo Subban around the league. Why would Colorado fans boo him?

He had a questionable hit on MacKinnon in the playoffs last year. It wasn't anything to warrant still booing IMO, in fact I don't think it was a penalty at the time, but it's why they're doing it. I asked my friend in Denver (Preds fan) if Avs fans hate us and he said no, it seems like they just hate PK. Whatever works I guess.