Rumor: All purpose Kessel trade rumours thread

[TheProspector]

The Toronto Maple Leafs need full value for their best player in a rebuild. Bad deals are what got us here. There's no reason to rush this, or set an artificial deadline like the draft, or even the beginning of next season.

 

[Muston Atthews]

I wonder if the Leafs are waiting to see what the return of Sharp is before they move Kessel.

Teams waiting for the "cheaper" options will be forced to pony up to the Leafs asking price if Sharp is off the market and they want a sniper.

 

[kihei]

Sounds like a plan. Lets trade the talent we do have for whatever gets offered just to get started. Forget the return, its not important right?

Hmm, where did I see this happen before?

Any GM who doesn't turn his current talent into future potential talent is a moron, and probably not an NHL GM for long.

Where did you see that happen before exactly? Or are you just blowing smoke rings? Just curious.

All this huffing and puffing. I'm not happy with an abysmal return either, but I will be happy with a reasonable return, not the home-run kind of return that some people on this tread seem to be expecting. As mentioned already, I would take Galchenyuk and Montreal's 1st this year and a cap dump for Kessel, forget the additional prospect? Would you say no to that? Well, would you?

You do realize trading Kessel for a great return would accelerate the rebuild ten fold right? Trading him for pocket change will leave the rebuild where it is at, maybe add a pick. You wait and trade him for a few big pieces and the rebuild speeds up 2 or 3 years.

Between "great return" and "pocket change" is the middle ground that the rest of us call "reality." I am all for a realistic return. You want to wait? What if he has another year like this year? Have you speeded up the rebuild? Have you acquired more big pieces? Or have you royally screwed up?

The problem with this thread is it speaks to the already converted. It's the other teams that need convincing. Hopefully that happens, but I don't think a "dream" deal is out there. Time will tell, and pretty quickly. An "acceptable" deal might be, though, and I hope we don't pass it up.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I enjoy non-Canadian broadcasts for that reason.

They seem to appreciate hockey players without the vile we get here.

Kessel is one of the top 10 offensive players in the game.

If the Leafs had a character team with two-way, 1st. line players it would be quite different.

What is it they say, defense wins?

Add Kessel to a team with solid defense and he'll be just fine.

Me too. Its a refreshing change. I suspect its the contenders that will be looking hard at acquiring phil. Washington to me seems like a fit. I know that is not the most popular talk but its a fit i think could happen.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Between "great return" and "pocket change" is the middle ground that the rest of us call "reality." I am all for a realistic return. You want to wait? What if he has another year like this year? Have you speeded up the rebuild? Have you acquired more big pieces? Or have you royally screwed up?

The problem with this thread is it speaks to the already converted. It's the other teams that need convincing. Hopefully that happens, but I don't think a "dream" deal is out there. Time will tell, and pretty quickly. An "acceptable" deal might be, though, and I hope we don't pass it up.

And what if Kessel goes back to his PPG pace next year, or even shows up "in shape" to camp and scores 90-100 (since apparently that's what being in shape will do for Kessel)? Then his price will skyrocket. This would be selling at his absolute lowest

 

[MJ65]

And what if Kessel goes back to his PPG pace next year, or even shows up "in shape" to camp and scores 90-100 (since apparently that's what being in shape will do for Kessel)? Then his price will skyrocket. This would be selling at his absolute lowest

It does not matter and he should leave (I have my own reasons for that), and he is quiet capable of scoring PPG, I am not debating that

- it's not the right environment
- He is not a fit for this organisation (as we lack depth and defense is still going to be a suspect
- He is not happy here (even though he has always maintained that he want to play for the Leafs), and management is not happy with him either
- Babcock has met Phaneuf but haven't heard if he has met Kessel
- The team is going to be even worst with the depleted line up (Babcock is not going to fix the issues overnight)

 

[Wafflewhipper]

And what if Kessel goes back to his PPG pace next year, or even shows up "in shape" to camp and scores 90-100 (since apparently that's what being in shape will do for Kessel)? Then his price will skyrocket. This would be selling at his absolute lowest

The scoring title was won this year with under 90 points sealing the deal. Kessel wasn't even that far off being top 20 in scoring and only managed 20 points from new years on.

He will be a 30/50 player again next year easily. He is a ironhorsr too. I can't even remember him missing a game its been that long.

He dropped dead basically last half after Carlyle was fired.

I think he aactually has a career year left in him and maybe two. People lead people to think its his lowest value at present but projecting him only scoring at the second halfs pace is not reasonable.

He will be back next year feasting on goalies again and 3 on 3 will make it a little easier for him withmore open ice.

 

[kihei]

And what if Kessel goes back to his PPG pace next year, or even shows up "in shape" to camp and scores 90-100 (since apparently that's what being in shape will do for Kessel)? Then his price will skyrocket. This would be selling at his absolute lowest

Well, it all boils down to "what if," right? My way or your way.

I don't want to give it another year. I want the rebuild to start now. So I would take the risk. The thought of another wasted year learning what is already crystal clear obvious would drive me over the wall and into Tampa Bay's arms.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Well said about Kessel. Although I disagree with the not needing to rebuild.

If no one is willing to meet our demands, we'll keep him. We have years before it becomes a necessity to trade him. Now that we have Babcock, I'm not worried about Kessel affecting the character of our young players. Babcock will ensure that our younger players develop in the right way.

Very well said and I think this is a really important point. I said a few months ago that the best thing that could happen to this team would be to get Babcok (or some other coach with a similar pedigree) and I'm thrilled he's our new coach. I'm sick of hearing people blame Kessel for everything. He is responsible for himself, not everyone else on the team. "Kessel this" or "Kessel that" is no excuse for other players not playing to the best of their ability. Somehow I think Babcock will be perfectly capable of being the alpha dog who sets the tone and he won't let Kessel get in the way of this team getting on the right track. And you never know, his presence might be enough to get Kessel to change his ways. Just imagine if that were to happen - it's a lot to hope for but you never know, the day might even come when we're glad we never traded him.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Well, it all boils down to "what if," right? My way or your way.

I don't want to give it another year. I want the rebuild to start now. So I would take the risk. The thought of another wasted year learning what is already crystal clear obvious would drive me over the wall and into Tampa Bay's arms.

I understand how you feel. Hopefully you can also understand why not everyone shares your opinion. A rebuild takes time, if you want everything to happen right away, you may as well go to Tampa Bay now because this will take a while. Trying to rush things is usually a recipe for failure.

 

[Joey24]

No, no rush to get rid of him. That is, unless you want to get the rebuild started now and not in two or three years time when you finally can get rid of him, but have postponed the inevitable for a couple of years to no great purpose. I want him and Phaneuf gone now and I'd hope that Leafs woul accept a reasonable deal, not a great deal. For instance, I'd jump at Galchenyuk, a first and a cap dump from Montreal, no need for an additional good prospect. The culture needs to be changed now.

They had a top 5 pick with him. They can afford to hold him and strip the roster around him.

There is no way they can afford to let him go for a bargin. Either get what you want for him or don't and keep him.

Just because the leafs are in rebuild mode does not mean they have to give phil away and accept the team and accept the low ball offers some teams may be throwing at them.

Toronto doesn't need to trade Kessel, what they do need is to get market value if they do... it's pretty simple. People saying give him away for the cap relief are being silly. What do they need cap relief for if their considering tanking for the next few years...

 

[Daisy Jane]

I'm sick of hearing people blame Kessel for everything. He is responsible for himself, not everyone else on the team. "Kessel this" or "Kessel that" is no excuse for other players not playing to the best of their ability..

To be fair - while you may be sick about hearing it (and I do agree with the fact that it is not an excuse for other people slacking off). people do look to their best players, etc for guidance, how to act, how to train, etcetc etc. Even if they don't want to be that person and I don't think it should be dismissed.

I get that people go all "lol Jeff O'Neil" but he always states that he learned how to do things from the more talented players (as well as the older vets) in Hartford/Carolina. almost every single hockey player i hear on the radio talked about how they did it. (including current NHLers like Stamkos (MSL/Vinny), and Subban, etc).

O'Neil also stated that he didn't take it all to heart. and he blames it on himself, but that's with him having a good influence, and he's said he can't even imagine how he'd be had he not had that (probably out of the league faster than anything).

I'm not going to be sitting here saying that Kessel would be a negative influence nor would that give someone the right not to do their own best, however - if you are a rookie and you look towards your best/talented/most played player and see how they act, carry on. it can make an impact and I dont think it is out out of the realm of possibility to want people coming in to have the very best in that locker room.

 

[Trapper]

The Toronto Maple Leafs need full value for their best player in a rebuild. Bad deals are what got us here. There's no reason to rush this, or set an artificial deadline like the draft, or even the beginning of next season.

You can still deal Bozak/Phaneuf/whatever while waiting on a Kessel deal.
Seriously, even with Babcock if you trade the others and don't really upgrade at all, what do you expect the Leafs to do? Kessel all by himself isn't going to do it. We still shouldn't contend or finish high so we can wait out the teams with higher expectations.

 

[Muston Atthews]

To be fair - while you may be sick about hearing it (and I do agree with the fact that it is not an excuse for other people slacking off). people do look to their best players, etc for guidance, how to act, how to train, etcetc etc. Even if they don't want to be that person and I don't think it should be dismissed.

I get that people go all "lol Jeff O'Neil" but he always states that he learned how to do things from the more talented players (as well as the older vets) in Hartford/Carolina. almost every single hockey player i hear on the radio talked about how they did it. (including current NHLers like Stamkos (MSL/Vinny), and Subban, etc).

O'Neil also stated that he didn't take it all to heart. and he blames it on himself, but that's with him having a good influence, and he's said he can't even imagine how he'd be had he not had that (probably out of the league faster than anything).

I'm not going to be sitting here saying that Kessel would be a negative influence nor would that give someone the right not to do their own best, however - if you are a rookie and you look towards your best/talented/most played player and see how they act, carry on. it can make an impact and I dont think it is out out of the realm of possibility to want people coming in to have the very best in that locker room.

Good thing the whole team is on the block then. If you're that easily impressionable then you're obviously not a fit in the NHL. When you score 30 goals consistently in the league you can play like Phil Kessel. If not, then you need to make up for the lack of points somewhere else.

 

[BIitz]

To be fair - while you may be sick about hearing it (and I do agree with the fact that it is not an excuse for other people slacking off). people do look to their best players, etc for guidance, how to act, how to train, etcetc etc. Even if they don't want to be that person and I don't think it should be dismissed.

I get that people go all "lol Jeff O'Neil" but he always states that he learned how to do things from the more talented players (as well as the older vets) in Hartford/Carolina. almost every single hockey player i hear on the radio talked about how they did it. (including current NHLers like Stamkos (MSL/Vinny), and Subban, etc).

O'Neil also stated that he didn't take it all to heart. and he blames it on himself, but that's with him having a good influence, and he's said he can't even imagine how he'd be had he not had that (probably out of the league faster than anything).

I'm not going to be sitting here saying that Kessel would be a negative influence nor would that give someone the right not to do their own best, however - if you are a rookie and you look towards your best/talented/most played player and see how they act, carry on. it can make an impact and I dont think it is out out of the realm of possibility to want people coming in to have the very best in that locker room.

IIRC Nylander was raving about how helpful Kessel was during the preseason for his game.

"I got a really good start when I got home again," Nylander told Expressen when asked about the Leafs' decision to send him back to Sweden in early October. "I got to play a lot from the start, too, and it has helped me.

"It's very fun to play and gain confidence in all situations."

Nylander credited Phil Kessel with showing him some tricks of the trade during training camp.

"He helped me with a lot of little things and (gave me) tips all the time," Nylander said. "Currently, he is an incredibly smart player and incredibly skilled. And I noticed that his shot is really good too."

 

[kihei]

I understand how you feel. Hopefully you can also understand why not everyone shares your opinion. A rebuild takes time, if you want everything to happen right away, you may as well go to Tampa Bay now because this will take a while. Trying to rush things is usually a recipe for failure.

So, okay, for example, my prospective deal that Montreal wouldn't likely do anyway.

Galchenyuk and Montreal's 2015 1st for Kessel, no other strings attached except a possible cap dump coming our way.

You pass that up if it's offered? That offer constitutes a recipe for failure? Or a reasonable return? Just trying to get a bead on where people actually stand on trading or keeping Kessel. Would you accept the offer or hold your hand?

 

[Trapper]

Good thing the whole team is on the block then. If you're that easily impressionable then you're obviously not a fit in the NHL. When you score 30 goals consistently in the league you can play like Phil Kessel. If not, then you need to make up for the lack of points somewhere else.

I don't buy the you can play like Phil Kessel. If you are going to play like Kessel, you'd better score 60 goals a year.
One of the best players we ever had in our history was told this:
Father Bauer, the Majors’ coach, delivered what Keon considers the toughest and ultimately most important lesson in his career. “Father Bauer told me that if I could score three goals a game, I didn’t have to worry about what happened at the other end of the ice or how I played without the puck,” Keon says of the work ethic instilled in him at St. Mike’s. “It sounds easy to understand now but it really took two years for me to accept it.”
Even Trotz told Ovi the same thing.
Yzerman was told and changed his game.
30 goals and -30 isn't acceptable. There are 82 games in a season. You can't score 30 and get beat the other 50 games of the year.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Good thing the whole team is on the block then. If you're that easily impressionable then you're obviously not a fit in the NHL. When you score 30 goals consistently in the league you can play like Phil Kessel. If not, then you need to make up for the lack of points somewhere else.

it's not about being impressionable or not. it's..

you know never mind.

IIRC Nylander was raving about how helpful Kessel was during the preseason for his game.

right exactly. little things like that. as i said I'm not going to say Kessel is a super negative influence and should be doom doom but to dismiss that it doesn't matter, especially when countless of NHLers say that it does - to me, seems a little off

 

[Joey24]

Well, it all boils down to "what if," right? My way or your way.

I don't want to give it another year. I want the rebuild to start now. So I would take the risk. The thought of another wasted year learning what is already crystal clear obvious would drive me over the wall and into Tampa Bay's arms.

But the rebuild has started. Its not like they are retooling trying to gear up for another playoff push. Keeping phil around doesn't make toronto a playoff team. If he doesn't go before or at the draft makes little difference. The team will likely be bottom 5 again next season, Dion will Most likely be gone. We have some other chips we could use like JVR etc.

I don't see your logic or others who seem to want to rush this and accept anything we are offered. 2016 has star talent in the top 5.. we have the 4Th this year most likely a top 5 next year it looks like they already started the rebuild and forgot to hand you the memo.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

So, okay, for example, my prospective deal that Montreal wouldn't likely do anyway.

Galchenyuk and Montreal's 2015 1st for Kessel, no other strings attached except a possible cap dump coming our way.

You pass that up if it's offered? That offer constitutes a recipe for failure? Or a reasonable return? Just trying to get a bead on where people actually stand on trading or keeping Kessel. Would you accept the offer or hold your hand?

I would never give Montreal 30 goals and their pick in the first is late. Gallagher being part of the deal would interest me though. I actually work with gallaghers uncle and rib him pretty hard lol. I actually have is masked pretty good that i like him ha.

 

[Ovate]

I'd rather seen Kessel gone this offseason, but if he stays for a year then putting him on a line with Lupul could seriously pump up Lupul's value. Lupul was nearly PPG when playing with Kessel, they complement each other very well.

 

[TheProspector]

I would never give Montreal 30 goals and their pick in the first is late. Gallagher being part of the deal would interest me though. I actually work with gallaghers uncle and rib him pretty hard lol. I actually have is masked pretty good that i like him ha.

Gallagher on the same line as Kadri is a long standing dream of mine. It'd be complete with Marchand. Three total, dirty pieces of **** who can all play, skate and score.

 

[Gary Nylund]

To be fair - while you may be sick about hearing it (and I do agree with the fact that it is not an excuse for other people slacking off). people do look to their best players, etc for guidance, how to act, how to train, etcetc etc. Even if they don't want to be that person and I don't think it should be dismissed.

I get that people go all "lol Jeff O'Neil" but he always states that he learned how to do things from the more talented players (as well as the older vets) in Hartford/Carolina. almost every single hockey player i hear on the radio talked about how they did it. (including current NHLers like Stamkos (MSL/Vinny), and Subban, etc).

O'Neil also stated that he didn't take it all to heart. and he blames it on himself, but that's with him having a good influence, and he's said he can't even imagine how he'd be had he not had that (probably out of the league faster than anything).

I'm not going to be sitting here saying that Kessel would be a negative influence nor would that give someone the right not to do their own best, however - if you are a rookie and you look towards your best/talented/most played player and see how they act, carry on. it can make an impact and I dont think it is out out of the realm of possibility to want people coming in to have the very best in that locker room.

I feel your pain. It's too bad that this team doesn't have a few really good players who also set the kind of example you would ideally like to be set and so, with nobody else to look at, our young players look at Kessel. Or maybe it's too bad that Phaneuf isn't a strong enough personality as captain that guys need someone else to set an example. I think the real problem is that a team needs more than 1-2 leaders and we just don't have them. Most of the blame IMO goes to the people who built this dis-functional team, not any one player.

So, okay, for example, my prospective deal that Montreal wouldn't likely do anyway.

Galchenyuk and Montreal's 2015 1st for Kessel, no other strings attached except a possible cap dump coming our way.

You pass that up if it's offered? That offer constitutes a recipe for failure? Or a reasonable return? Just trying to get a bead on where people actually stand on trading or keeping Kessel. Would you accept the offer or hold your hand?

I pass on this offer because I think we can do better.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I feel your pain. It's too bad that this team doesn't have a few really good players who also set the kind of example you would ideally like to be set and so, with nobody else to look at, our young players look at Kessel. Or maybe it's too bad that Phaneuf isn't a strong enough personality as captain that guys need someone else to set an example. I think the real problem is that a team needs more than 1-2 leaders and we just don't have them. Most of the blame IMO goes to the people who built this dis-functional team, not any one player.



I pass on this offer because I think we can do better.

and i agree with you. i've also said that

 

[KPower]

So, okay, for example, my prospective deal that Montreal wouldn't likely do anyway.

Galchenyuk and Montreal's 2015 1st for Kessel, no other strings attached except a possible cap dump coming our way.

You pass that up if it's offered? That offer constitutes a recipe for failure? Or a reasonable return? Just trying to get a bead on where people actually stand on trading or keeping Kessel. Would you accept the offer or hold your hand?

I take that and run.

We are not doing better than that offer.