Rumor: All purpose Kessel trade rumours thread

[Wafflewhipper]

JVR and Bozak were no better than Kessel. There is no way them other two should be off the hook because Kessel is getting traded.

Dump the other two as well. They sucked just as bad defensively. The center is supposed to be held just as accountable as the wingers.

The right center being in place and he is not near as bad or percieved as bad. Jvr floated around high in the slot doing nothing defensively all season.

So svrew blaming Kessel for everything. Still trade him but come on now.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

I agree that in whatever Kessel deal is made he will be the best piece moving. Let me go on record and put in an official guess:
2016 1st round pick
2015 2nd round pick
Connor Brown level prospect
Cap dump

 

[deletethis]

JVR and Bozak were no better than Kessel. There is no way them other two should be off the hook because Kessel is getting traded.

Dump the other two as well. They sucked just as bad defensively. The center is supposed to be held just as accountable as the wingers.

The right center being in place and he is not near as bad or percieved as bad. Jvr floated around high in the slot doing nothing defensively all season.

So svrew blaming Kessel for everything. Still trade him but come on now.

JVR isn't a perfect player AND he benefited offensively from playing a regular shift with Kessel. But no opposing team designed forechecking schemes to force the puck to his wing in the defensive zone. Actually it was the complete opposite, the opposition didn't want the puck on his wing because he's decent on breakouts, so decent that Carlyle and Horachek used him heavily on the penalty kill.

As for Bozak, he's probably an average NHL defending center with average offensive acumen. He's Matt Stajan. Put average with above average offensive skill on your wings, get above average offensive output. Put average with slightly above average on one wing and far below average defensive zone on the other wing who has shut it down for the season and you get far below average defensive results from the center.

 

[Trapper]

JVR and Bozak were no better than Kessel. There is no way them other two should be off the hook because Kessel is getting traded.

Dump the other two as well. They sucked just as bad defensively. The center is supposed to be held just as accountable as the wingers.

The right center being in place and he is not near as bad or percieved as bad. Jvr floated around high in the slot doing nothing defensively all season.

So svrew blaming Kessel for everything. Still trade him but come on now.

No time for the blame game.
6 years have gone by. If rebuilding is what's going to happen, you have to look at each players pros/cons, age,salary,long term projections,will player value increase in 3 years,decrease,stay the same,everything.

However, if you do need to blame someone,blame Burke.
He shot his bolt to acquire Kessel and surrounded him with pretty much nothing. Goodbye picks and the picks we did have he selected Ryan,Biggs,McKegg,Ross,Devane,Broll,etc. etc. what do you want to do with that?

 

[budzz]

I've been going back and forth on the "trade kessel" debate myself many times, and can see both arguments.

Here's a thought tho... do the upcoming rule changes regarding 3 on 3 in overtime change things?

It occurs to me that at 3 on 3, speed and skill is going to rule. Sure you also have to be defensively responsible, but with so much new room on the ice in overtime, an extremely quick and skilled player is going to have many chances to do some damage, and will likely have more shots on goal in ot in general. This would really favour a sniper like Kessel no?

Could be the difference of 6-10 points at the end of a season. Some pretty good teams missed the playoffs by a few points (and a few made it by only a few points) so these shouldn't be discounted.

Does the new 3 on 3 rule make any of the die hard "trade Phil" crowd think twice?

 

[RyanOhReally]

I remember when we were winning games and people were saying "His defensive skills have improved. He'll never win a Selke but he isn't awful." And "He's paid to score, COULD YOU IMAGINE IF HE HAD A LEGIT 1C?!?!?!?!"

I miss those days.

 

[MJ65]

I've been going back and forth on the "trade kessel" debate myself many times, and can see both arguments.

Here's a thought tho... do the upcoming rule changes regarding 3 on 3 in overtime change things?

It occurs to me that at 3 on 3, speed and skill is going to rule. Sure you also have to be defensively responsible, but with so much new room on the ice in overtime, an extremely quick and skilled player is going to have many chances to do some damage, and will likely have more shots on goal in ot in general. This would really favour a sniper like Kessel no?

Could be the difference of 6-10 points at the end of a season. Some pretty good teams missed the playoffs by a few points (and a few made it by only a few points) so these shouldn't be discounted.

Does the new 3 on 3 rule make any of the die hard "trade Phil" crowd think twice?

Absolutely not - we need team players, not individuals

 

[egd27]

I've been going back and forth on the "trade kessel" debate myself many times, and can see both arguments.

Here's a thought tho... do the upcoming rule changes regarding 3 on 3 in overtime change things?

It occurs to me that at 3 on 3, speed and skill is going to rule. Sure you also have to be defensively responsible, but with so much new room on the ice in overtime, an extremely quick and skilled player is going to have many chances to do some damage, and will likely have more shots on goal in ot in general. This would really favour a sniper like Kessel no?

Could be the difference of 6-10 points at the end of a season. Some pretty good teams missed the playoffs by a few points (and a few made it by only a few points) so these shouldn't be discounted.

Does the new 3 on 3 rule make any of the die hard "trade Phil" crowd think twice?

The die hard "trade Phil" crowd would prefer 6-10 points less rather than 6-10 points more as a rule.

 

[stealth1]

I can't believe so many people still defend this guy. Shanahan after firing Carlyle came out and said it was on the players to prove they still wanted to be here. What happened after that? They quit trying and couldn't wait for the season to end. He may be a great goal scorer but I wouldn't want that kind of attitude around my team.

 

[deletethis]

I've been going back and forth on the "trade kessel" debate myself many times, and can see both arguments.

Here's a thought tho... do the upcoming rule changes regarding 3 on 3 in overtime change things?

It occurs to me that at 3 on 3, speed and skill is going to rule. Sure you also have to be defensively responsible, but with so much new room on the ice in overtime, an extremely quick and skilled player is going to have many chances to do some damage, and will likely have more shots on goal in ot in general. This would really favour a sniper like Kessel no?

Could be the difference of 6-10 points at the end of a season. Some pretty good teams missed the playoffs by a few points (and a few made it by only a few points) so these shouldn't be discounted.

Does the new 3 on 3 rule make any of the die hard "trade Phil" crowd think twice?

3 on 3 still requires defending. It's probably not a wash but it isn't a landslide positive for a superior offensive talent who doesn't give a hoot about the defensive side of the game.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I've been going back and forth on the "trade kessel" debate myself many times, and can see both arguments.

Here's a thought tho... do the upcoming rule changes regarding 3 on 3 in overtime change things?

It occurs to me that at 3 on 3, speed and skill is going to rule. Sure you also have to be defensively responsible, but with so much new room on the ice in overtime, an extremely quick and skilled player is going to have many chances to do some damage, and will likely have more shots on goal in ot in general. This would really favour a sniper like Kessel no?

Could be the difference of 6-10 points at the end of a season. Some pretty good teams missed the playoffs by a few points (and a few made it by only a few points) so these shouldn't be discounted.

Does the new 3 on 3 rule make any of the die hard "trade Phil" crowd think twice?

I doubt it changes the minds but it is a good point none the less. It makes him even more likely to end a game in overtime. Absolutely its another value he adds to who ever he is playing for.

 

[Poignant Discussion*]

I remember when we were winning games and people were saying "His defensive skills have improved. He'll never win a Selke but he isn't awful." And "He's paid to score, COULD YOU IMAGINE IF HE HAD A LEGIT 1C?!?!?!?!"

I miss those days.

He quit last year, that's what changed. And I have no interest in following a team that employees quitters

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Watched more than enough of him on the ice to know about his character flaws as a player.

Me as well. All I can go on is what my own eyes see and what ever info/rumours I can get. And so far Kessel imo is a very flawed player.
I do think he have a very high compete level in that he really hate to lose, perhaps more then most others. But his charachter flaws get in the way of him being able to contribute as much as one would like considering how talented he is.
It's all in his head and his lack of willingness to play physical.

 

[Babcocks Marner]

Water's said today on TSN that if the Leafs don't retain on Phaneuf and Kessel, whatever GM trades for them will be fired the next day......

 

[Muston Atthews]

Water's said today on TSN that if the Leafs don't retain on Phaneuf and Kessel, whatever GM trades for them will be fired the next day......

Watters knows nothing

 

[The Apologist]

The problem with it is that there are no stats to look up, you simply need to watch the player.

Kessel for example virtually never goes after loose pucks in the corners. He consistently loses footraces for pucks against the slow Hal Gill's of the world, even if he has a head start, because he doesnt want to take a hit to make a play. He literally turns away from the puck at times to avoid taking a hit. He's not exactly a small 5'10 170lb guy, so he doesnt even have the excuse of lack of size.

Then you can watch his effort levels in regards to backchecking (he often floats back) and in the defensive zone. He's one of hte fastest players in the league, but really only uses it when going on the offence.

Without stats to look up, people will always defend him because it's somewhat subjective. But watch Kessel's "compete level" when going after loose pucks, backchecking, etc vs other stars around the league. Losing those puck battles on a consistent basis lead to losing hockey games on a consistent basis.

But that's just it, what you see is not what I see. What we see in a player is greatly affected by our feelings on that player.
Some on here are overly critical of Kadri no matter what he does. Others (like myself) are harder on JVR (the very definition of a floater).

I said it in the previous thread but I actually thought Kessel was ok on the backcheck. His forecheck is what got to me.

 

[The Apologist]

He quit last year, that's what changed. And I have no interest in following a team that employees quitters

so what players would you keep then? From my tv screen, every single player on that team quit. Are we trading them all?

 

[The Apologist]

No time for the blame game.
6 years have gone by. If rebuilding is what's going to happen, you have to look at each players pros/cons, age,salary,long term projections,will player value increase in 3 years,decrease,stay the same,everything.

However, if you do need to blame someone,blame Burke.
He shot his bolt to acquire Kessel and surrounded him with pretty much nothing. Goodbye picks and the picks we did have he selected Ryan,Biggs,McKegg,Ross,Devane,Broll,etc. etc. what do you want to do with that?

I blame Nonis, I still have no idea what the hell his vision was for this team. At least with Burke the team had an identity

 

[Menzinger]

Water's said today on TSN that if the Leafs don't retain on Phaneuf and Kessel, whatever GM trades for them will be fired the next day......

There's good reason why Watters doesn't work in the NHL anymore, his opinions tend to be wrong more often than not.

 

[BlueBaron]

I agree that in whatever Kessel deal is made he will be the best piece moving. Let me go on record and put in an official guess:
2016 1st round pick
2015 2nd round pick
Connor Brown level prospect
Cap dump

I think that is a fair expectation but I worry he is not traded until after July 1 when his 5 Mil bonus is paid.

 

[Daisy Jane]

But that's just it, what you see is not what I see. What we see in a player is greatly affected by our feelings on that player.
Some on here are overly critical of Kadri no matter what he does. Others (like myself) are harder on JVR (the very definition of a floater).

I said it in the previous thread but I actually thought Kessel was ok on the backcheck. His forecheck is what got to me.

I agree with you on that front. I thought after Randy basically told him what makes him go is driving hard to the net and he was doing it all of 2014, this year, it was like "hey watch me do that pretty move between my legs, and watch it not work anymore."

I really do try to give players their due (even if I don't like them). I think Phil does get blamed for a lot of stuff that he shouldn't - and I don't think that is fair, and I think I tried to address that the entire season. (again - I can not be held responsible for cranky comments during games ).

I won't deny there is a part of me that is curious what Babcock can do to reinforce that he can be (as we talked about in the other thread) - "not very good." instead of being the sheer liability that he (Bozak/JVR) was (were) this season. I also think if it doesn't take, Phil will be becoming close friends with the press box attendant, as I don't think Babcock will care who is in there and what it looks like to the media.

Nonis and Burke really messed up by failing to build around him, and I think whatever happens, the Leafs per usual are going to be holding the short end of the stick.

* we lost 6 years of cost-control Phil and didn't build around him

* every year from now we're losing prime Phil. (I do believe that a lot of players after 30 tend to lose a step and slow down. I don't know if Phil is that kind of player, but I think we can all agree, regardless of how we feel about his conditioning or not, if Phil's speed starts to slow down, a part of what makes him dynamic is gone).

* we don't have assets to build him around him now, nor do I think the organization wants to gun for 8th place anyway. (not anymore). Babcock himself pretty much said it was the #1 reason why he didn't want to come here if we were going to 'rush' through anything until he was told that everyone was on board with going nice and slow.


I don't think the deal we're going to get is going to be mind-blowingly amazing, and it could hurt us (though I try to keep optimistic and think it works out happily in the end).

 

[Reddaye]

Nonis and Burke really messed up by failing to build around him, and I think whatever happens, the Leafs per usual are going to be holding the short end of the stick.

Bu...bu...but Burke left a playoff team when he was fired Daisy. He said so himself. A playoff team!

Said it before, and I'll say it again: look at the Rick Nash trade as a comparable for what we'll probably get for Phil. A lot of people won't be happy, but that's how I see it playing out.

 

[Donato]

Water's said today on TSN that if the Leafs don't retain on Phaneuf and Kessel, whatever GM trades for them will be fired the next day......

Kessel is getting paid around market value for what he brings to the table. We're not eating anything on kessel unless the package is a great one

 

[MJ65]

James Mirtle retweeted
Harvey Fialkov ‏@hfialkov 24m24 minutes ago
Panthers still don't seem interested in Phil Kessel. I'm hearing Leafs demands are ridiculous. #flapanthers

 

[HarrisonFord]

Good, I like it