Rumor: All purpose Kessel trade rumours thread

[AvroArrow]

There's a lot of speculation going around about Kessel being traded prior to the start of next season. As the Leafs are rebuilding i think most of our fanbase wants to move Kessel, as it's the best move for both parties. I've seen a lot of different threads with hypothetical trade scenarios, polls etc. The length of his contract is obviously a concern to any team, but there's been a lot of talk about whether or not he's considered an elite scorer in the league or if he is worth the money. I've come up with some comparisons to give people a better idea of where he stands when compared with some of the leagues best. Numbers are taken from the beginning of the 2010-2011 season up until the end of the 2014-2015 season.


Kessel 151G - 188A - 339Points - 376GP - Age 27 - CH 8Mil til 2022


.90Ppg & .40Gpg & .50Apg



P.Kane 129G - 198A - 327Points - 332GP - Age 26 - CH 10.5Mil til 2023

.98Ppg & .39Gpg & .59Apg



Toews 140G - 175A - 315Points - 343GP - Age 27 - CH 10.5Mil til 2023

.92Ppg & .40Gpg & .52Apg



Getzlaf 101G - 238A - 339Points - 347GP - Age 30 - CH 8.25Mil til 2021

.98Ppg & .29Gpg & .69Apg



Giroux 119G - 257A - 376Points - 370GP - Age 27 - CH 8.275 Mil til 2022

1.01Ppg & .32Gpg & .69Apg



Perry 178G - 153A - 331Points - 354GP - Age 30 - CH 8.625 Mil til 2022


.94Ppg & .50Gpg & .44Apg



Backstrom 76G - 239A - 315 Points - 331GP - Age 27 - CH 6.7 Mil til 2020

.95Ppg & .23Gpg & .72Apg



E.Staal 119G - 195A - 314 Points - 367GP - Age 30 - CH 8.25 Mil til 2016

.86Ppg & .32Gpg & .64Apg



Rick Nash 151G - 124A - 275 Points - 345GP - Age 31 - CH 7.8 Mil til 2018

.80Ppg & .44Gpg & .36Apg

PPG Leaders

1) Giroux
2) Kane/Getzlaf
4) Backstrom
5) Perry
6) Toews
7) Kessel
8) E. Staal
9) Nash


GPG Leaders

1) Perry
2) Nash
3) Kessel/Toews
5) Kane
6) Giroux/Staal
8) Getzlaf
9) Backstrom


APG Leaders

1) Backstrom
2) Giroux / Getzlaf
4) Staal
5) Kane
6) Toews
7) Kessel
8) Perry
9) Nash

When you look at his numbers there's no doubt he should be considered when talking about the leagues best offensive players. His point totals are comparable to the other "elite" players . In terms of goal scoring he's one of the best. His defensive game is still not as good as it needs to be but his offense is top notch. I know there's 100 more factors that numbers cant account for but taking this into consideration, what would be fair value for Phil Kessel ?

Another thing to consider is the that he's been able to put up these numbers with very minimal offensive support. The Maple Leafs have been terrible for quite some time now and it's obvious he doesn't have the same support as majority of the players listed.(Giroux/Voracek, Toews/Kane, Getzlaf/Perry, Backstrom/Ovechkin) If he played on a team like Chicago, Anaheim, Washington or had a real #1 Centre to play with, there's no doubt that his numbers would jump even higher. A combo of Getzlaf/Kessel , Toews/Kessel, Backstrom/Kessel ?

Let's just say hypothetically your team had an interest in one of the other players, what would you be willing to give up for him? What if your team had an interest in Kessel, what would you give up for him ? I would appreciate if people can pick Kessel and one of the other players listed and post what they feel is a fair trade offer for each. Taking their age, contract, and performance into consideration. Just trying to get a logical idea of what people think he's worth, his value in comparison to players with similar numbers and what leaf fans can expect to get in return if he's moved.

Click to read more...

 

[Dreakmur]

Why?

Was compete level less important then? I don't recall anyone specifying a date or time.

So no, I'll use Kovalev as an example. Thanks so much.

Kovalev is a good example. He was a secondary player on New York. Kessel could easily win a cup as a secondary player.

 

[Canada4Gold]

With this

My old music teacher once told me character is defined as what you do when nobody is looking. I'll define it as putting the needs of the team above an individual. Kessel has rarely if ever, exhibited that trait.

you should probably get a new device, that thing looks like the scale is messed up. Halfway is 9, and then all the way is 60?

 

[Muston Atthews]

Many... Pronger, Kane, Richards, Carter just off the top of my head

You could go down the list of former champs and find a few on each team.

 

[The Legend]

With this

My old music teacher once told me character is defined as what you do when nobody is looking. I'll define it as putting the needs of the team above an individual. Kessel has rarely if ever, exhibited that trait.

I disagree. He always puts the needs of the team above an individual.


Can I prove that? Nope. But you can't prove your point either. Which is why this entire track of discussion is completely useless.

But just in case you want to talk about that magical term "caring" again...

Career Playoff PPG

Jonathan Toews: 0.87
Patrick Kane: 0.98
Phil Kessel: 0.95


Love narratives.

 

[The Legend]

You dont measure either. You learn about them through interviews/interactions over a long period of time.

So what you're saying is that unless you've interviewed or interacted with Kessel, you wouldn't be able to measure them?

 

[Nithoniniel]

I don't care much for the talk about whether or not he cares. I think he probably does, but he doesn't translate that well onto the ice. Either way, it's a non-issue.

The only thing that matters is whether or not keeping Kessel around makes the most sense in the scenario in which we find ourselves, that is on the verge of a proper rebuild.

So what you're saying is that unless you've interviewed or interacted with Kessel, you wouldn't be able to measure them?

No, that is obviously not what he is saying.

 

[draftlottery]

Career Playoff PPG

Jonathan Toews: 0.87
Patrick Kane: 0.98
Phil Kessel: 0.95

Statistics are meaningless unless you have enough data points. Kessel has played a tiny fraction of the number of playoff games as Toews and Kane.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Statistics are meaningless unless you have enough data points. Kessel has played a tiny fraction of the number of playoff games as Toews and Kane.

The statistics he posted are a lot more meaningful then the post he was responding to and I think that was his point. I could be wrong but that's the way I took it.

 

[draftlottery]

Also, he wouldn't touch 40 goals in today's NHL.

Neither will Kessel.

 

[The Legend]

Statistics are meaningless unless you have enough data points. Kessel has played a tiny fraction of the number of playoff games as Toews and Kane.

Bringing up statistical concepts in a discussion about caring and compete level - how ironic.

 

[The Legend]

The statistics he posted are a lot more meaningful then the post he was responding to and I think that was his point. I could be wrong but that's the way I took it.

Correct as always GN.

 

[The Legend]

Can you show me how one measures compete level?
Character?

You dont measure either. You learn about them through interviews/interactions over a long period of time.

So what you're saying is that unless you've interviewed or interacted with Kessel, you wouldn't be able to measure them?

No, that is obviously not what he is saying.

Oh, ok - so you "learn about them" through interviews and interactions - which (shot in the dark here) I'm assuming isn't something that most of the people trashing him have ever been privy to.

 

[Trapper]

I disagree. He always puts the needs of the team above an individual.


Can I prove that? Nope. But you can't prove your point either. Which is why this entire track of discussion is completely useless.

But just in case you want to talk about that magical term "caring" again...

Career Playoff PPG

Jonathan Toews: 0.87
Patrick Kane: 0.98
Phil Kessel: 0.95


Love narratives.

Playoffs:
Toews (Games Played 117) .87
Kane (Games Played 116) .98
Kessel (Games Played 22) .95

Not enough sample size.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Oh, ok - so you "learn about them" through interviews and interactions - which (shot in the dark here) I'm assuming isn't something that most of the people trashing him have ever been privy to.

Correct. It is the ones closest to him, coaches and teammates who are the best judges of his character and compete level. The 2nd ring would be the reporters who follow the team up close and then we fans come who rely on 2nd or 3rd hand information mixed in with some 1st hand info via interviews.
We of course also make judgements (wrongly or rightly) depending on the players performances over an extended period of time in different situations.

 

[Menzinger]

I've never seen a satisfactory definition of 'compete level' - most of the time it seems to be a generic criticism of a player

 

[613Leafer]

I've never seen a satisfactory definition of 'compete level' - most of the time it seems to be a generic criticism of a player

The problem with it is that there are no stats to look up, you simply need to watch the player.

Kessel for example virtually never goes after loose pucks in the corners. He consistently loses footraces for pucks against the slow Hal Gill's of the world, even if he has a head start, because he doesnt want to take a hit to make a play. He literally turns away from the puck at times to avoid taking a hit. He's not exactly a small 5'10 170lb guy, so he doesnt even have the excuse of lack of size.

Then you can watch his effort levels in regards to backchecking (he often floats back) and in the defensive zone. He's one of hte fastest players in the league, but really only uses it when going on the offence.

Without stats to look up, people will always defend him because it's somewhat subjective. But watch Kessel's "compete level" when going after loose pucks, backchecking, etc vs other stars around the league. Losing those puck battles on a consistent basis lead to losing hockey games on a consistent basis.

 

[deletethis]

Even if you were right that Kessel's offensive stats compiled on Leafs' teams catering to his style completely trump other aspects of the player, it doesn't matter if Shanahan and company don't agree. I heard what Shanahan said after the season. I hear reports about Shanahan's and Babcock's feelings after Phil Kessel. Kessel's poster was torn off Brendan Shanahan's bedroom wall long ago.

 

[ULF_55]

Playoffs:
Toews (Games Played 117) .87
Kane (Games Played 116) .98
Kessel (Games Played 22) .95

Not enough sample size.

That is true.

Maintain that .95 through 4 rounds of playoffs over several years is meaningful.

Putting up 2 points a game in a single playoffs round is not.

 

[WestCoastLeafs]

The problem with it is that there are no stats to look up, you simply need to watch the player.

Kessel for example virtually never goes after loose pucks in the corners. He consistently loses footraces for pucks against the slow Hal Gill's of the world, even if he has a head start, because he doesnt want to take a hit to make a play. He literally turns away from the puck at times to avoid taking a hit. He's not exactly a small 5'10 170lb guy, so he doesnt even have the excuse of lack of size.

Then you can watch his effort levels in regards to backchecking (he often floats back) and in the defensive zone. He's one of hte fastest players in the league, but really only uses it when going on the offence.

Without stats to look up, people will always defend him because it's somewhat subjective. But watch Kessel's "compete level" when going after loose pucks, backchecking, etc vs other stars around the league. Losing those puck battles on a consistent basis lead to losing hockey games on a consistent basis.

Sounds like a chronic case of confirmation bias.

 

[egd27]

Originally Posted by HotelMario
My old music teacher once told me character is defined as what you do when nobody is looking. I'll define it as putting the needs of the team above an individual. Kessel has rarely if ever, exhibited that trait.

Character is defined as what one does when nobody is looking yet you feel qualified to assess Kessel's character based on what you've seen?

That's funny.

 

[The CyNick]

Playoffs:
Toews (Games Played 117) .87
Kane (Games Played 116) .98
Kessel (Games Played 22) .95

Not enough sample size.

I think it's more than enough.

Clearly shows Phil can't lead teams to the playoffs. Those other guys can.

 

[The CyNick]

Correct. It is the ones closest to him, coaches and teammates who are the best judges of his character and compete level. The 2nd ring would be the reporters who follow the team up close and then we fans come who rely on 2nd or 3rd hand information mixed in with some 1st hand info via interviews.
We of course also make judgements (wrongly or rightly) depending on the players performances over an extended period of time in different situations.

Watched more than enough of him on the ice to know about his character flaws as a player.

 

[Trapper]

That is true.

Maintain that .95 through 4 rounds of playoffs over several years is meaningful.

Putting up 2 points a game in a single playoffs round is not.

Also keep in mind that Kessel turns 28 in October. When is the next time he gets back to the playoffs? Age 30? 32?
It will really be difficult to ever properly compare. Gone forever is the Kessel age 22-27. This team wasted his 5 year/5 million cap hit.
3 Cups later, Toews/Kane are now in the heavy contract committed phase just like Kessel. Even as the Hawks prepare to move players like Sharp/Bickell etc., they still have the core with Hossa/Keith/Seabrook. Plus solid picks like Terevainen/Saad taking over for the departed.

Kessel? Well as of today he still has Bozak/Lupul/Phaneuf.

 

[palmateer67]

Watched more than enough of him on the ice to know about his character flaws as a player.

First of all, no one on this board - including me - knows anything about Phil Kessel's "character". The common chirps against Kessel are that he doesn't listen to coaches and that he doesn't back-check. Only his coaches (and a few teammates) would know the truth about the first point, while the second is moot, as the likes of Kane could be accused of the very same thing.

Secondly, regarding the issue of character, consider that Kessel has never appeared in a negative light about anything - on or off the ice - and has always replied to all questions with an honest and genuine manner. The fact that he challenges reporters (and fans) when he gets attacked is something to be respected.

Lastly, Patrick Kane, a player who many on this board would gladly trade for Kessel, has behaved in a manner which, ironically, most fans here would not accept.

http://deadspin.com/5909246/reconstructing-patrick-kanes-drunken-weekend-in-madison

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blo...er-allegedly-assaulting-robbin?urn=nhl,181695

Which begs the question: How long would Kane have lasted under the scrutiny of Leafs Nation?