All Elite Wrestling #1: AEW announced TV deal with TNT, partners with B/R Live

[Kimi]

Why can’t a time limit draw he an applicable finish here? PAC doesn’t lose, Page looks good for taking him to the limit.

4 months of promotion.

Draw isn't an option, unless it's really short match. Which it shouldn't be, 'cos that would be bad on all accounts. They're on PPV with a hard time limit and plenty of other matches that need time, so it's silly to put 30mins into a match that will have a non-finish. It's far better to spend the time where it'll achieve a positive booking result for AEW instead of a what would essentially be a time filler.

 

[JackSlater]

No. They chose to be the promotion that puts on a good show.

A match with a bad finish that achieves nothing and makes no one happy isn't worth doing, so they're not.

These conclusions are very poor. If you promote a match for months and then cancel it a week out it's very simply a negative unless there is a superior replacement match lined up. This is assuming that AEW wouldn't agree to an outcome other than Page winning, but having a match in which Page doesn't win does not stop AEW from putting on a good show, it does not mean that a match has a bad finish, and it does not mean that it achieves nothing or is not worth doing. I know that it's the angle that Meltzer is leaning toward but people don't need to simply swallow whatever he says.

 

[The Burdened]

Draw isn't an option, unless it's really short match. Which it shouldn't be, 'cos that would be bad on all accounts. They're on PPV with a hard time limit and plenty of other matches that need time, so it's silly to put 30mins into a match that will have a non-finish. It's far better to spend the time where it'll achieve a positive booking result for AEW instead of a what would essentially be a time filler.

If they are wanting to be more sports oriented and less gaga, then they're going to need to get comfortable with timelimit draws.

There are good stories to tell with timelimit draws if told correctly and there is great drama to be had. They should not be dismissed as filler nothing.

obv only they know what story they wanted to tell.

It's fair to guess a big part of that story they wanted was Page getting a big clean win over one of the bigger names on the show in order to help give him cred. Could they have done 30-min draw with Page hitting his finish but couldn't make the cover in time as time expired? Good way to make Page look like he's on PAC's level by giving a visual pinfall but PAC was saved by the bell. Also gives an option for a return match where Page progresses and gets better, beats some people, and finally can get it done against PAC (after PAC loses the DreamGate title so there is no conflict).

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

I’m a little shocked that these two guys couldnt figure out a creative solution to their match that would make everyone happy.

Then again maybe I’m a bit naive about the business.

 

[Kimi]

If they are wanting to be more sports oriented and less gaga, then they're going to need to get comfortable with timelimit draws.

There are good stories to tell with timelimit draws if told correctly. They should not be dismissed as filler nothing.

obv only they know what story they wanted to tell.

It's fair to guess a big part of that story they wanted was Page getting a big clean win over one of the bigger names on the show in order to help give him cred. Could they have done 30-min draw with Page hitting his finish but couldn't make the cover in time as time expired? Good way to make Page look like he's on PAC's level by giving a visual pinfall but PAC was saved by the bell. Also gives an option for a return match where Page progresses and gets better, beats some people, and finally can get it done against PAC (after PAC loses the DreamGate title so there is no conflict).

Yeah draws are good for booking, you can make great use fo them. I've been a massive proponent of time limits in matches.

But on a PPV (which will have long time limits to ensure a result, opposed to short limits on TV) where you have a hard limit on time, you CAN'T do a long draw. It's not a practical solution here. It's one thing if they were going in with the plan of a draw and structure the show around it, but you can't change what was going to be a normal match into a draw on a whim without hurting everyone else.


As for your example, it's very easy to see why Dragon Gate might not agree to it. It makes Pac look weak. The visual loss makes you look weak even though it's not a loss, so it's reasonable to not agree to it.

 

[The Burdened]

Yeah draws are good for booking, you can make great use fo them. I've been a massive proponent of time limits in matches.

But on a PPV (which will have long time limits to ensure a result, opposed to short limits on TV) where you have a hard limit on time, you CAN'T do a long draw. It's not a practical solution here. It's one thing if they were going in with the plan of a draw and structure the show around it, but you can't change what was going to be a normal match into a draw on a whim without hurting everyone else.


As for your example, it's very easy to see why Dragon Gate might not agree to it. It makes Pac look weak. The visual loss makes you look weak even though it's not a loss, so it's reasonable to not agree to it.

Realistically tho, how long would this match have gone? +/- 20 mins so they have to find 10-minutes and that 10-mins can be found.

Cut other matches times or you bump a match to the pre-show. Some must die so others can live.
You make time for what's important and PAC/Page was the 2nd most important match and has 4-months promotion. Prioritize.

Fair enough DG might not have been ok with even a draw like that. They also might not have paid too much attention to the details. Could just be "are you losing? No? Are they making you look like a fool? No? Ok. Just don't embarrass us."

Given Dave's timeline, I'm inclined to guess the only finish AEW was ever interested in was Page winning period. That's cool, it's their business, but a lot of fans are going to have a sour taste in the mouth after having an anticipated match with 4-months promotion pulled.

Now they have to over deliver with something to make up for letting the fans down. Hopefully whatever it is makes everyone forget about this drama.

 

[Kimi]

These conclusions are very poor. If you promote a match for months and then cancel it a week out it's very simply a negative unless there is a superior replacement match lined up. This is assuming that AEW wouldn't agree to an outcome other than Page winning, but having a match in which Page doesn't win does not stop AEW from putting on a good show, it does not mean that a match has a bad finish, and it does not mean that it achieves nothing or is not worth doing. I know that it's the angle that Meltzer is leaning toward but people don't need to simply swallow whatever he says.

Yeah, cancelling a match is a negative, no one is saying it isn't. But assuming you NEED to change the match, cancelling it is the better option than having a bad match with a non-"booking positive" result.


On the bolded:
It doesn't, but AEW isn't just about being a good show. The match has to fit in with their booking plans going forward, as well as having Dragon Gate and Pac agree to it. So you are limited on what you can do. There are many ways they could have a good no-result finish in a vacuum, but they are not in one.

AEW might have come up with a new plan for Hangman that they want to get started on this show, but nothing they came up with was accepted by DG. There were finishes that DG would do, but maybe they wouldn't work with what AEW wanted to do.

Maybe something like this happened:
-AEW and DG agree to a match and finish, AEW began promoting it.
-AEW signs Moxley, and want him to work with Hangman.
-AEW want to start the Hangman-Moxley program on the PPV with a run-in, so try and re-book the Pac match.
-DG don't like what AEW offer and can't agree on a finish.
-AEW decided that Hangman-Moxley is more important than the Pac match, so cancel it and to do something to set the program up up.

 

[Kimi]

Realistically tho, how long would this match have gone? +/- 20 mins so they have to find 10-minutes and that 10-mins can be found.

Cut other matches times or you bump a match to the pre-show. Some must die so others can live.
You make time for what's important and PAC/Page was the 2nd most important match and has 4-months promotion. Prioritize.

Yeah, 20+mins is probably what it would have been. But 10mins is a lot of wrestling. It's an entire match worth of wrestling to take from else where. It's not easy, and the other matches do need time as well.

They also had time issues on their last show, so I think it would be reasonable to not want to have a long, fixed-length match late in the show.

Also, a draw might not even have been an option at all.


And they did prioritise, it's just the match wasn't the thing they chose to prioritise. We'll find out next week if they made the right choice.

 

[The Burdened]

Yeah, 20+mins is probably what it would have been. But 10mins is a lot of wrestling. It's an entire match worth of wrestling to take from else where. It's not easy, and the other matches do need time as well.

They also had time issues on their last show, so I think it would be reasonable to not want to have a long, fixed-length match late in the show.

Also, a draw might not even have been an option at all.


And they did prioritise, it's just the match wasn't the thing they chose to prioritise. We'll find out next week if they made the right choice.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that pacing will not be an issue given what happened at All In. They will be on top of it. Besides, all of the guys on this show are now AEW employees and not just freelancers so their could be repercussions if a match goes long (so long as it's not Kenny, Cody, Bucks, & Page's matches).

I stand by the notion that if they needed to do a 30-minute draw, they cut time from less important things. IF getting a timelimit finish accomplishes a goal with Page/PAC and it means another match only gets 5-mins or bumped, then sorry lads thems the breaks welcome to wrestling for a company on live TV.

You are right, I don't think they ever saw a timelimit draw as an option.

 

[Disclose]

bucks deserve their "full" match

 

[KaseMeOutside]

I feel like AEW wants Page to be a top player and wanted him to beat Dragon Gate’s champ and PAC and DG were having none of it.

I don’t think Page is on that level.

I’m almost not even down for my idea earlier of Moxley debuting vs. Page if the idea is to have Page win at DoN to set him on that track as a top player.

This is the problem with talent sharing. Before booking the match a finish should've been agreed upon, this whole situation is frankly absurd when you're asking people to pay 50 dollars fir the show

 

[Cor]

Spoiler

Jake Swagger seemed to hint strongly about Jon Moxley’s debut. In an interview he was asked whether he’d be debuting with AEW at Double or Nothing, and Swagger explained that he didn’t want to be in Moxley’s shadow, and it’s going to be a big debut for him and that’s where he thinks we’ll see him.

Swagger says he’s excited about AEW, and the opportunities happening outside the WWE right now is why he left the company a couple years ago.

 

[JackSlater]

Yeah, cancelling a match is a negative, no one is saying it isn't. But assuming you NEED to change the match, cancelling it is the better option than having a bad match with a non-"booking positive" result.


On the bolded:
It doesn't, but AEW isn't just about being a good show. The match has to fit in with their booking plans going forward, as well as having Dragon Gate and Pac agree to it. So you are limited on what you can do. There are many ways they could have a good no-result finish in a vacuum, but they are not in one.

AEW might have come up with a new plan for Hangman that they want to get started on this show, but nothing they came up with was accepted by DG. There were finishes that DG would do, but maybe they wouldn't work with what AEW wanted to do.

Maybe something like this happened:
-AEW and DG agree to a match and finish, AEW began promoting it.
-AEW signs Moxley, and want him to work with Hangman.
-AEW want to start the Hangman-Moxley program on the PPV with a run-in, so try and re-book the Pac match.
-DG don't like what AEW offer and can't agree on a finish.
-AEW decided that Hangman-Moxley is more important than the Pac match, so cancel it and to do something to set the program up up.

Very little of this has to do with AEW putting on a good show, having a match with a bad finish, or putting on a match that is worth doing. This is again all under the assumption that AEW was adamant that Page win or Pac was adamant that he wouldn't lose, but there is no shortage of endings that could allow everyone to avoid this situation. It would be stunning if AEW, given its resources, couldn't convince Pac or Dragon Gate to go through with a finish that didn't even damage him. A match that doesn't perfectly satisfy AEW is preferable to no match at all when the match has been heavily promoted, again unless there is a far superior option available.

If AEW developed a new plan only a week out and decided to go in a completely different direction, to the point where the promotion cancelled a pretty heavily promoted match, then that's some Vince McMahon in the 2010s style booking. If it was something centered around Moxley then the reasonable thing to do would be to have him appear, f*** with Page in some way, promote a feud/match going forward. Blowing it in this way would scream some combination of poor planning and creative failure given how backward it would be.

 

[GKJ]

I think it’s making a bigger deal out of it than it is. Sure it’s something of a misstep by AEW, PAC was the champion when they had those rallies, it shouldn’t be surprising in any way to them. But I’d say not delivering a match they promoted bothers them more than the politics behind it. No one will remember if there is a make-good.

 

[Fro]

My biggest problem is who is paying $50 for a PPV in 2019? And on a holiday weekend when a lot of ppl are with friends and family

 

[Cor]

My biggest problem is who is paying $50 for a PPV in 2019? And on a holiday weekend when a lot of ppl are with friends and family

Its just like the WWE though.

You can order WWE as a PPV still for the standard $50, but most people use the monthly subscription WWE Network, or watch it on an illegal source.

With AEW, you can order it via individual PPV, or if you sign up for FITE’s monthly subscription, you get it cheaper.

Only difference is that WWE no longer advertises the PPV ways of watching and just their network, whereas AEW, since they aren’t tied to the streaming network, is advertising every way to watch.

 

[Fro]

Didnt know fite did that...good to know

 

[Cor]

I think it’s making a bigger deal out of it than it is. Sure it’s something of a misstep by AEW, PAC was the champion when they had those rallies, it shouldn’t be surprising in any way to them. But I’d say not delivering a match they promoted bothers them more than the politics behind it. No one will remember if there is a make-good.

I think a lot of it will depend on what happens next week.

Like if Page comes out, and cuts a promo about how PAC quit on the match, yadda yadda, and then did an open challenge, and Moxley debuts, people will forget all about PAC.

But frankly, I feel his was avoidable. When they created this card, did they not know who they wanted to win?

 

[Cor]

Didnt know fite did that...good to know

Actually, apparently I’m wrong. It’s 34.99 usd on FITE. I thought they were subscription based, but apparently not.

So yeah, AEW needs to find a subscription based alternative to go along with the full on PPV route.

But, there are still people who order WWE PPV’s the traditional route, and I think they can get away with it this show due to the intrigue and hype, but moving forward, they need a subscription based platform for their PPV’s

 

[GKJ]

I think a lot of it will depend on what happens next week.

Like if Page comes out, and cuts a promo about how PAC quit on the match, yadda yadda, and then did an open challenge, and Moxley debuts, people will forget all about PAC.

But frankly, I feel his was avoidable. When they created this card, did they not know who they wanted to win?

if I were to guess, I'd say AEW always thought Page would win.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

More details on the situation

- it was a DG Title issue
- Dave thinks PAC won’t be back until he drops the belt
- AEW didn’t want a DQ finish because they want wins and losses on PPV, and didn’t want a time limit draw because they’ve been booed and they don’t want boos at the PPV
- PAC refusing to lose would mess up long term plans

 

[Fro]

I think they made the right call

 

[M.C.G. 31]

Didn’t listen to it but the inference some seem to get is that the issue wasn’t losing to Page here, but rather losing the next big match at All In 2, against an Omega, let’s say, and PAC just straight up doesn’t eat pins as champ.

 

[Cor]

if I were to guess, I'd say AEW always thought Page would win.

I would assume so as well.

So is that not a conversation you have before announcing or at the very least before heavily promoting the match?

“Hey PAC, we want you to face Page”
“Sounds great, I’m in”
“We want Page to get established, so he’d take the W at DoN”
“Not while I’m DG Champion, I’m not losing”
“Okay, we’ll have you face _______ instead, or what about we add ______ to the match, make it a Triple Threat, and Page pins that wrestler?”

It seems like a basic conversation when booking shows to me.

Maybe not

 

[Cor]

More details on the situation

- it was a DG Title issue
- Dave thinks PAC won’t be back until he drops the belt
- AEW didn’t want a DQ finish because they want wins and losses on PPV, and didn’t want a time limit draw because they’ve been booed and they don’t want boos at the PPV
- PAC refusing to lose would mess up long term plans

Couldn’t you turn it into like a 15 minute Ironman match and have it end 1-1?

Like, if it’s a normal match, and then it’s just ends in a time draw, I get that being boo’d, but the Ironman match is the work around.