Alex Barkov wins the Selke

[teugen]

Such a joke

Barkov has a defensive reputation and was the best player on a breakout team, that's the only reason he won. Nothing to do with his defense play this season which was nothing more than slightly above average at best

Sorry but your post is such a joke. Haven't clearly watched a single game. That boi goes to his own zone to get the puck back and he is also finishing the play at the offensive zone. 200ft game my man, 200ft game.

 

[teugen]

I do think the voters actually have looked at some games and also take into considering who they play with:

Marchand - Bergeron - Pasternak

Verhaeghe - Barkov - Marchment . Also Duclair, Tippet, Vatrano at some point

Now tell me which player has the better support?

I was dying to see if someone actually used their brain and thought about this. Barkov makes those AHL caliber players look like solid first line stars. Marchand is actually really solid two way player and people keep thinking like that has nothing to do with Bergerons numbers. I'm a big fan of bergy and he was my favorite player before Barkov even joined the league. I'd say I'm not totally wrong if I claim that Bergeron has always had better linemates than Barkov. But whatever, I guess hockey is an 1v1 game now where the only guy making the impact is the center.

 

[Regal]

I was dying to see if someone actually used their brain and thought about this. Barkov makes those AHL caliber players look like solid first line stars. Marchand is actually really solid two way player and people keep thinking like that has nothing to do with Bergerons numbers. I'm a big fan of bergy and he was my favorite player before Barkov even joined the league. I'd say I'm not totally wrong if I claim that Bergeron has always had better linemates than Barkov. But whatever, I guess hockey is an 1v1 game now where the only guy making the impact is the center.

I think Marchand and Pasta help Bergeron in the sense that he can focus more defensively than someone like Barkov who also has to carry the load offensively, but I don't think Marchand helps Bergeron defensively all that much. He has good defensive ability and is an excellent PKer, but since Julian left and he broke out offensively, he definitely cheats for offense like most high scoring wingers.

 

[Regal]

This. Datsyuk was a wizard on the ice, but in terms of defending and shutting down the other team he was very overrated.

It kind of depends on how you want to think of "defense" I suppose. Datsyuk was an amazing shot and chance suppressor in free-flowing 5v5 play, disrupting things in the neutral zone, picking off passes, stripping pucks, transitioning the puck and keeping it in the offensive zone, etc. Defending a lead in the defensive zone at the end of a game though, you'd probably rather have Zetterberg or Bergeron or a few other guys.

 

[CDJ]

Lazerus voted MARNER over Bergeron


I f***ing can’t. Listen, whatever- I get that they want to give it out to new blood. But you kinda kill the credibility of the award when you put some of these guys over Bergeron

Barkov is well-deserving though imo

 

[ScottyMascotty]

My opinion may be unpopular: Sasha definitely deserved a win, but Verhaeghe has helped him a lot. I mean, A LOT.

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

Now lets put Bergeron on Florida Panthers and Barkov on Boston Bruins.

All things aren't equal and that's why Bergeron won't win the award every year of his career.

This is full of disrespect for a player that already won 4 Selke, 10 nominations, has been in the league and still is performing at a high level since 2005, close to reach 1000 points, with the pedigree he has. Not going to argue Barkov win....he won it! Let see how Barkov will impact his team culture for a decade ! Then he might have a chance of playing with teammates that he helped growing in their organisation!

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

Lazerus voted MARNER over Bergeron


I f***ing can’t. Listen, whatever- I get that they want to give it out to new blood. But you kinda kill the credibility of the award when you put some of these guys over Bergeron

Barkov is well-deserving though imo

This! And that has been the same story for a while now.If this is right the guy has to be define as someone with no hockey knowledge

 

[BRUINS since 1995]

Difficult to compare this season with the varying divisions. Barkov in the top 3 is justified, but the landslide vote with 11 voters leaving Bergeron out of the top 5 shows how hard these "media" personalities are trying to be MLB's award voters. It is a terrible look. A new system for voting where competent voters, such as peers or management, decide the award winners would be ideal.

I've heard Bergeron came second to Crosby with 23% voters (by peers) being the toughest player to play against! That says a lot! Now won't argue on Barkov which is a great player.... I did not see him play this year. Can't argue on who should have won... they did not play the same teams, schedule were bizarre etc.. Good on Barkov and congrats for the win! But people saying Bergeron two game play is a result of Pastrnak play is just stupid!

 

[PB37]

My opinion may be unpopular: Sasha definitely deserved a win, but Verhaeghe has helped him a lot. I mean, A LOT.

Not unpopular at all. The numbers back this up.

I don't want to come across as someone who doesn't think Barkov isn't a two way force in this league. He's one of the top, elite two way performers in the game and probably did the most with unproven talent as his side kicks. But as far as defensively dominant centers that are Selke caliber, there were better ones to choose from this year.

 

[bondra]

Not unpopular at all. The numbers back this up.

I don't want to come across as someone who doesn't think Barkov isn't a two way force in this league. He's one of the top, elite two way performers in the game and probably did the most with unproven talent as his side kicks. But as far as defensively dominant centers that are Selke caliber, there were better ones to choose from this year.

Yeah but offense still counts, I think Barkov was most complete 2-way foward out of those 3 players and we can see it in the voting.

 

[PB37]

Yeah but offense still counts, I think Barkov was most complete 2-way foward out of those 3 players and we can see it in the voting.

It counts, but it's a defensive award trophy. While offense is a trending thing with the award to be more of a two-way trophy rather than strictly defensive, it's never been " who has the most points out of the elite defensive players " award. How good you can play defense is the main metric of the Selke, while good offense is the cherry on top that gets you the nominations. Maybe Barkov continues to change that narrative next year if he gets nominated/wins again with another high end offense/adequate defensive year? But it's always been the other way around in the post lockout era, which is what puzzles me with the voting. But when you have Barkov not getting on 8 of the 100 ballots and Patrice Bergeron 11 out of the 100, then you know a lot of the writers just aren't paying attention.

 

[Ainec]

Elite

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

With a season Barkov had, its cringe worthy people have balls to whine about Barky's win.

If Barkov would be non finnish and playing in bigger market would this happen? I doubt.

What does his country have to do with any of this?

Barky may have had an elite season but he was closer to #3 than #1 with this award. Nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[Ainec]

What does his country have to do with any of this?

Barky may have had an elite season but he was closer to #3 than #1 with this award. Nothing to be ashamed of.

Barky would have beat the Islanders with Marchand and Pastrnak

Not a slight to Bergeron

 

[burstnbloom]

“Didn’t have a positive impact” lmao.

you can laugh all you want but his opponents were better offensively than average when he was on the ice.

 

[teugen]

My opinion may be unpopular: Sasha definitely deserved a win, but Verhaeghe has helped him a lot. I mean, A LOT.

Verhaeghe is great and all, but shouldn't this be the other way around? Carter has struggled to stabilize his spot in the NHL. He scored 13 points last year in 52 games. Now his first year with Barkov turned to be 43 games and 18 goals / 36 points. Its kinda true that Verhaeghe helped Barkov in sense of the offense, because Barkov wasn't the only one who can put up some numbers, but I'd say Barkov has bigger impact on Carter's game than the other way around.

 

[heksagon]

This thread is a great example of using advanced stats without the necessary context. They are imperfect, and only attempt to take linemates and competition into consideration without fully succeeding. They can be very useful as a tool, but not In a vacuum.

If advanced stats tell that Barkov was only slightly above average, not positively impacting defense, or carried by Verhaeghe... Well, then they are flat out misleading.

I would've been fine with Bergy or Stone winning too though, it's that close. The Selke has transformed into a two-way trophy through, and Barkov was the best two-way forward in the game this season.

 

[SotasicA]

Guys that play on scoring lines shouldn't even qualify for best defensive forward.

Or make a separate award for shutdown players like Bob Gainey.

 

[FinlandPanther]

you can laugh all you want but his opponents were better offensively than average when he was on the ice.

I’m sure they were lmao.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Barky would have beat the Islanders with Marchand and Pastrnak

Not a slight to Bergeron

How so? The issue ended up being an injured Rask, injured/ineffective defense, and once again lack of depth scoring.

 

[Spazkat]

lol

 

[Ainec]

How so? The issue ended up being an injured Rask, injured/ineffective defense, and once again lack of depth scoring.

Barkov is just that good

 

[burstnbloom]

I’m sure they were lmao.

Good post. Adding a lot to this board

 

[burstnbloom]

This thread is a great example of using advanced stats without the necessary context. They are imperfect, and only attempt to take linemates and competition into consideration without fully succeeding. They can be very useful as a tool, but not In a vacuum.

If advanced stats tell that Barkov was only slightly above average, not positively impacting defense, or carried by Verhaeghe... Well, then they are flat out misleading.

I would've been fine with Bergy or Stone winning too though, it's that close. The Selke has transformed into a two-way trophy through, and Barkov was the best two-way forward in the game this season.

The argument that they are imperfect but a person's impression is a better gauge doesn't hold up to any intelligent scrutiny. What those numbers tell you is what actually happened. Your eyes/memory/impressions do not do that. The imperfection is in extrapolating that data to forecast going forward. There are a lot of variables in hockey and a ton of noise and that makes it challenging to read what will happen going forward based on measured events. That said, to say they don't measure events properly is just incorrect. They very specifically measure the things that happened. The conclusions you draw from them are the imperfection.

For example, Barkov's opponents were more likely to have offensive zone impact with him on the ice than average. That is a fact. If you're me, you take that data and you say "he's really good, so thats probably noisey and I'm not worried about it going forward" Another person could say thats a definitive predictor of ability. Others could say it means nothing at all. Therein lies the imperfection.

The problem is this award isn't "who is Barkov really?" It's who is the best defensive forward this year and it has morphed into who is the best 2 way forward THIS YEAR. It's extremely difficult to make that argument for Barkov with statistics. He had a phenomenal offensive season. One in which he kind of sold out his larger body of work defensively to achieve. Bergeron was pretty clearly better as a two way player this year than Barkov according to the numbers. If you want to make an argument otherwise, that's your right, but you're basically saying you "feel" like Barkov was better. That's fine, but people who evaluate things like this with numbers will always argue that you're wrong because we're not talking about the same two things.