Alain Vigneault Named Head Coach Part 2

[Ruck Over]

The Flyers had to make a big-name coaching move. They couldn't bring in the next Dave Hakstol. Everyone else who has been hired wasn't any better of a fit here.

My loyalty to AV is only as thick as his beard. Stubble counts, clean shaven does not.

 

[Adtar02]

i dont get it either, half of prospects are probably going to be in the ahl realistically, if there's injuries im sure some of them will play, but playing them for the sake of playing them is most dumbest decision because it will hurt the team,[mod].

And you also don’t know if frost can come in and play like barzal. No one saw that coming. And his play in juniors is far closer to that than not.

Coaching has changed. Maybe they add players not in the system maybe they don’t.

Maybe ghost is traded maybe not.

But the worst players are slowly being replaced by youth. While having some serious talent in the top end.

I would put my money on them being far better than this past year with out trades or fa coming in just based on the coaching change. Which wait for it........ is what this thread is about. The coach. Not a 2c. Or Patrick or ghost. The coach.

 

[TheKingPin]

They likely aren’t challenging for a cup next year. I’m looking forward to being excited for games again and being a threat every night. If Hart gets on a role who knows. The following year we run this division.

 

[Rich Nixon]

They likely aren’t challenging for a cup next year. I’m looking forward to being excited for games again and being a threat every night. If Hart gets on a role who knows. The following year we run this division.

I...wouldn't be so sure about that. I don't completely expect them to be, but AV is a hell of a coach. In his first season with Vancouver they won a division and made the second round. In his first season with the Rangers he took them to the Finals. These, of course, with prime Luongo/Lundqvist, but neither team had overwhelming top-end talent (dropoff is dramatic after Sedins and the shell of Naslund on the '07 Canucks) or even particularly great defenses.

They'll make some moves, and if they shore up the defense a bit and Hart avoids some sophomore struggles, this team might shock the hell out of a lot of people. It's a very talented group and it just brought in one of the best coaches in the league. I'm expecting them to see at least two rounds of playoff hockey next spring.

Of course, it doesn't happen right away. In both of those first seasons, his teams came out 11-11 through their first 22 games, which is pretty natural for a team under a new coach I think. They then went on to go 38-22 and 34-26 through their last 60, respectively. But I fully expect to be about a .500 team in mid-November and hearing all sorts of whining around here before the team takes off and starts gutting through the conference en route to a sweet, sweet Conference Finals loss.

 

[TheKingPin]

I...wouldn't be so sure about that. I don't completely expect them to be, but AV is a hell of a coach. In his first season with Vancouver they won a division and made the second round. In his first season with the Rangers he took them to the Finals. These, of course, with prime Luongo/Lundqvist, but neither team had overwhelming top-end talent (dropoff is dramatic after Sedins and the shell of Naslund on the '07 Canucks) or even particularly great defenses.

They'll make some moves, and if they shore up the defense a bit and Hart avoids some sophomore struggles, this team might shock the hell out of a lot of people. It's a very talented group and it just brought in one of the best coaches in the league. I'm expecting them to see at least two rounds of playoff hockey next spring.

I hope so! And I could see it. But I also could see a sophomore slump for Hart making that backup very important. Just more than likely they will take two years to get going. Obviously a lot depends on this offseason. Add Duchene and Trouba and we are in good shape. Hayes and Myers and it’s a little harder to imagine. I’d like Voracek for Subban. Sign Duchene and Panarin. Don’t think the cap works out great there though.

 

[Rich Nixon]

I hope so! And I could see it. But I also could see a sophomore slump for Hart making that backup very important. Just more than likely they will take two years to get going. Obviously a lot depends on this offseason. Add Duchene and Trouba and we are in good shape. Hayes and Myers and it’s a little harder to imagine. I’d like Voracek for Subban. Sign Duchene and Panarin. Don’t think the cap works out great there though.

Not too worried about the individual moves. Just get a good top 4 d-man, be he Trouba, Spurgeon, Subban, whatever, at the most minimal cost, and maybe slap in Hayes or another solid center. Backup is huge, and I'd actually be happy if they brought back Elliott. Who cares, it's the coaching thread.

What we do know is that AV's systems tend to spread out the scoring and squeeze a lot out of even fourth-liners--not necessarily scoring, but definitely responsibility. They play with a certain sort of annoying, buzzing rhythm, the situational player usage is usually good, and they're big on pressure. They wear teams the hell out. No matter what players come in, they're going to be as good as the goalie tandem can handle.

 

[deadhead]

I think both Fletcher and AV sound impressed by the young talent, and I don't see anything that suggests they're in a rush to move out the top prospects or #11.

They may kick the tires on Duchene, but I don't think they'll be interested in getting into a bidding war, same with Hayes. I think Fletcher would be happy to sign if the price is right, but will choke on 7x11 for Duchene and 6x6 for Hayes.

I think Fletcher would rather trade for Spurgeon than Trouba, especially if the price is significantly lower, both in trade and for an extension.

I could see Stralman on a reasonably priced 2 year deal to buy time for the kids to develop.
I could see them picking up bottom six depth (top six is pretty hard to break into, other than Duchene) at low cost, maybe a 3 year contract or a trade involving a 2nd/3rd rd pick and 3rd tier prospect (Vorobyev, NAK, etc).

I think they want to see what they have in the kids before making major changes at a high cost, how good are Patrick, Frost, Farabee, Ratcliffe, Myers, Morin? What will Rubtsov, Kase, Bunnaman, Vorobyev, Twarynski be able to contribute by the spring. How fast are Sandstrom and Ersson devloping?

Add Stralman or Miller and a 3C who can PK and center a fourth line if Frost emerges and you're a better team with depth up and down the lineup.
Laughton could be 4C or 3LW as needed, Hartman could move from 4RW to 3RW, Raffl can move around.
This team has enough scoring and should add more as the kids develop.
What they need is better, more disciplined defensive play and better goaltending.

 

[TheKingPin]

Not too worried about the individual moves. Just get a good top 4 d-man, be he Trouba, Spurgeon, Subban, whatever, at the most minimal cost, and maybe slap in Hayes or another solid center. Backup is huge, and I'd actually be happy if they brought back Elliott. Who cares, it's the coaching thread.

What we do know is that AV's systems tend to spread out the scoring and squeeze a lot out of even fourth-liners--not necessarily scoring, but definitely responsibility. They play with a certain sort of annoying, buzzing rhythm, the situational player usage is usually good, and they're big on pressure. They wear teams the hell out. No matter what players come in, they're going to be as good as the goalie tandem can handle.

I can’t wait to see it action. But I think the pieces brought in and what it will cost are important.

 

[Foggy14]

I am very confident that our coaching is better now than this time last year.

And we don't play any Finnish teams next season, so that's really good.

 

[Curufinwe]

Especially since Lappy is no where near the bench now.

He'll be able to see the bench from where he sits.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

He'll be able to see the bench from where he sits.

Someone should put those sleep blinders on him. He'll be just as effective with them on. But at least he won't see the bench .

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Not too worried about the individual moves. Just get a good top 4 d-man, be he Trouba, Spurgeon, Subban, whatever, at the most minimal cost, and maybe slap in Hayes or another solid center. Backup is huge, and I'd actually be happy if they brought back Elliott. Who cares, it's the coaching thread.

What we do know is that AV's systems tend to spread out the scoring and squeeze a lot out of even fourth-liners--not necessarily scoring, but definitely responsibility. They play with a certain sort of annoying, buzzing rhythm, the situational player usage is usually good, and they're big on pressure. They wear teams the hell out. No matter what players come in, they're going to be as good as the goalie tandem can handle.

This is pretty much where I’m at. I care less about forcing specific player moves than I do about them simply adding a top 4 D, 2C, solid backup G, & improving their team speed in general.

Face it, I don’t know what specific trade offers & contract demands are actually out there, anyway.

Address those major holes & I’ll be happy; I’m not married only to certain options.

 

[deadhead]

What we do know is that AV's systems tend to spread out the scoring and squeeze a lot out of even fourth-liners--not necessarily scoring, but definitely responsibility. They play with a certain sort of annoying, buzzing rhythm, the situational player usage is usually good, and they're big on pressure. They wear teams the hell out. No matter what players come in, they're going to be as good as the goalie tandem can handle.

This is why, after Fletcher sits down with AV and discusses the roster, that I can see them going after an experienced two-way veteran forward or two (as Fletcher said he wanted) to fill out the bottom six, AV may well feel the top six is fine but he wants better 3rd and 4th lines to rotate.
Fletcher's comment on two way forwards suggests that he sees a lack of defense at forward as a bigger problem than scoring.
Who on the bottom six is a plus defensive forward?

 

[David St Hubbins]

He'll be able to see the bench from where he sits.

I think it's a great opportunity for him to learn the game, kinda like Sanheim, and the other young players. Maybe let him sit in the press box for, maybe 5-6 games, uh, weeks. No, uh, decades. Yeah, decades! That should set him up for success in coaching.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Did Buffalo really hire Ralph Krueger? He's done so well with team Europe in that farce of a tourney they called world cup.

 

[Striiker]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I'm not convinced Lappy is/was a problem.

The PK was the same horrible passive dog**** cowardly Hakshell that we saw at 5v5 and the end of games until Gordon came up... so it very well might be that it was Hakstol pulling the strings and Lappy had little-to-no control. He might have just been there to be told what to do, follow directions, and be the "good cop" between the players and the coach.

I guess we'll never know for sure, but I'm just saying it wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

[Magua]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I'm not convinced Lappy is/was a problem.

The PK was the same horrible passive dog**** cowardly Hakshell that we saw at 5v5 and the end of games until Gordon came up... so it very well might be that it was Hakstol pulling the strings and Lappy had little-to-no control. He might have just been there to be told what to do, follow directions, and be the "good cop" between the players and the coach.

I guess we'll never know for sure, but I'm just saying it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Rewatch the mic'd up Stadium Series, and then come back to me about Lappy's competency.

I absolutely believe Hakstol was heavily to blame, but that doesn't mean multiple doofuses can't be in the room.

 

[Striiker]

Rewatch the mic'd up Stadium Series, and then come back to me about Lappy's competency.

I absolutely believe Hakstol was heavily to blame, but that doesn't mean multiple doofuses can't be in the room.

Just watched this and didn't catch anything bad...

 

[deadhead]

The PK advanced metrics were fine, it was the goalies that were the real problem.

Once Hart came up, that changed, his HDSC S% was much higher than the other goalies - and on the PK, you're gonna give up some HDSC no matter how good your PK unit and scheme - your goalie has to rise to the occasion. And when you have confidence in the goalie, you can play to take away the tough save and let him handle everything else.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No, the change occurred prior to Hart. When Hakstol was fired and we switched to a more aggressive PK instead of the passive nonsense. It made an immediate difference regardless of who was in net.

 

[Outlaw Samurai]

Rewatch the mic'd up Stadium Series, and then come back to me about Lappy's competency.

I absolutely believe Hakstol was heavily to blame, but that doesn't mean multiple doofuses can't be in the room.

I want this on a T-Shirt

 

[deadhead]

No, the change occurred prior to Hart. When Hakstol was fired and we switched to a more aggressive PK instead of the passive nonsense. It made an immediate difference regardless of who was in net.

Hakstol: CF% (7), xGA (22), xGF% (17), SCA (8), SCSV% (28), HDCA (17), HDSV% (27)
Gordon: CF% (26), xGA (15), xGF% (10), SCA (15), SCSV% (10), HDCA (17), HDSV% (7)

 

[Rich Nixon]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I'm not convinced Lappy is/was a problem.

The PK was the same horrible passive dog**** cowardly Hakshell that we saw at 5v5 and the end of games until Gordon came up... so it very well might be that it was Hakstol pulling the strings and Lappy had little-to-no control. He might have just been there to be told what to do, follow directions, and be the "good cop" between the players and the coach.

I guess we'll never know for sure, but I'm just saying it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Well, it’s also important that fans realize: Assistant coaches might run a special teams unit, but that doesn’t mean they designed the system. They’re often just tasked with ensuring the head coach’s ideas are being executed. The manager of your local CVS gets bitched at every day by elderly customers, but it’s not like he invented the brand, built the shop, and set the prices.

No, the change occurred prior to Hart. When Hakstol was fired and we switched to a more aggressive PK instead of the passive nonsense. It made an immediate difference regardless of who was in net.

These two things happened on the same day.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Hakstol: CF% (7), xGA (22), xGF% (17), SCA (8), SCSV% (28), HDCA (17), HDSV% (27)
Gordon: CF% (26), xGA (15), xGF% (10), SCA (15), SCSV% (10), HDCA (17), HDSV% (7)

I see you're abusing stats again by omitting context.


Do we have to explain the relationship between goaltender results and the way the team in front of him plays? Do we really have to do that? Do you really need to be told that a team passively letting a PP do what they want will slaughter goalies? You need to be told that?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Well, it’s also important that fans realize: Assistant coaches might run a special teams unit, but that doesn’t mean they designed the system. They’re often just tasked with ensuring the head coach’s ideas are being executed. The manager of your local CVS gets *****ed at every day by elderly customers, but it’s not like he invented the brand, built the shop, and set the prices.



These two things happened on the same day.

Non-Hart goalies also did better.