Alain Vigneault Named Head Coach Part 2

[deadhead]

I see you're abusing stats again by omitting context.


Do we have to explain the relationship between goaltender results and the way the team in front of him plays? Do we really have to do that? Do you really need to be told that a team passively letting a PP do what they want will slaughter goalies? You need to be told that?

Those stats embed context, scoring chances and high danger scoring chances, by definition, incorporate PK play, since if a passive PK actually allows more and better scoring chances, then you should be lower in league rankings of chances allowed, while S% is situational.

 

[Jettany]

Just watched this and didn't catch anything bad...

Still loved “ keep hitting them boys. They never liked it, never will”. Something along those lines.

 

[Striiker]

Still loved “ keep hitting them boys. They never liked it, never will”. Something along those lines.

Typically I think that stuff is super overrated, but the one team that it definitely works on is the Pens.

You even saw in that game how they twice took stupid penalties. One was the clean Simmonds hit and the other was Hagg messing with Malkin.

 

[deadhead]

Seemed to work for St Louis and Boston in the playoffs.

Hitting isn't enough, and it can backfire (see the missed hit by Blais that led to a goal), but it's a key to playoff hockey, play physical, bring the body, "hit somebody." Especially on the forecheck, and against good teams you have to dump it in at times and go chase, which requires both speed and 'tude.

The flip side of being physical is the willingness to take a hit to get the puck, soft teams have too many players who'll shy away from contact or won't go into dirty areas or block shots.

 

[Stizzle]

Just watched this and didn't catch anything bad...

Multiple clips definitely exist from that game with him shouting useless cliches and continually telling the players to finish checks on the Pens defensemen. Maybe it didn't make the main show, but it's somewhere.

 

[baudib1]

Remember when there were Mason fanboys and this sprouted up -- "one of the best 5v5 goalies in the league"? The reason that was a thing was because the PK was bad. Lappy's system was bad with "one of the best 5v5 goalies in the league," it was bad with mediocre goalies, horrible goalies and decent goalies.

 

[Tripod]

Remember when there were Mason fanboys and this sprouted up -- "one of the best 5v5 goalies in the league"? The reason that was a thing was because the PK was bad. Lappy's system was bad with "one of the best 5v5 goalies in the league," it was bad with mediocre goalies, horrible goalies and decent goalies.

I was one of those supporters.

All one has to do is re-watch the Washington playoff series. On the PP, we allowed Washington to just tee p Ovi and Carlson over and over again. It was pathetic.

We all remember the Mason bad goal from the other end of the ice. But few remember that he only allowed 3 or 4(I can't even remember exactly), ES goals in those 3 games. All the other goals were on the PP and he was at their mercy for most of them.

Then Neuvirth came in, and they switched to a pressure PK. Then abandoned it the following year....lol.

 

[deadhead]

PK -
2013-14: Flyers were 18th in SC S%, 27st in HD S%, 15th in GA - 16th in xGA
2014-15: Flyers were 27th in SC S%, 27st in HD S%, 28th in GA - 21st in xGA
2015-16: Flyers were 15th in SC S%, 20th in HD S%, 21st in GA - 17th in xGA
2016-17: Flyers were 26th in SC S%, 21st in HD S%, 21st in GA - 2nd in xGA
2017-18: Flyers were 30th in SC S%, 31st in HD S%, 24th in GA - 2nd in xGA
2018-19:
Hasktol: Flyers were 28th in SC S%, 27th in HD S%, 28st in GA - 22nd in xGA
Gordon: Flyers were 10th in SC S%, 7th in HD S%, 13th in GA - 15th in xGA
The Flyers with Hart in goal were above average in PK goalie play for the first time since 2008-09.
2010-11 they were 16th in SC S% and 8th in HD S%.

2018-19:
Hart: PK: 90.6% all / 88.0% HD shots - ES: 91.6% all / 82.6% HD shots
Elliott: PK: 84.5% all / 70.6% HD shots - ES: 91.8% all / 83.6% HD shots
2017-18:
Elliott: PK: 81.2% all / 70.0% HD shots - ES: 92.6% all / 83.3% HD shots
Neuvirth: PK: 81.6% all / 58.8% HD shots - ES: 93.4% all / 83.3% HD shots
2016-17:
Mason: PK: 84.4% all / 76.5% HD shots - ES: 91.9% all / 76.7% HD shots
Neuvirth: PK: 82.4% all / 76.5% HD shots - ES: 90.1% all / 79.9% HD shots
2015-16:
Mason: PK: 82.9% all / 72.4% HD shots - ES: 93.2% all / 82.9% HD shots
Neuvirth: PK: 89.8% all / 81.8% HD shots - ES: 93.0% all / 82.6% HD shots
2014-15:
Mason: PK: 84.5% all / 74.2% HD shots - ES: 94.0% all / 82.9% HD shots
Emery: PK: 81.1% all / 57.7% HD shots - ES: 91.3% all / 80.3% HD shots
2009-10:
Emery: PK: 81.4% all / 63.8% HD shots - ES: 93.1% all / 83.1% HD shots
Boucher: PK: 84.7% all / 69.2% HD shots - ES: 91.1% all / 79.3% HD shots
Leighton: PK: 92.5% all / 79.4% HD shots - ES: 91.6% all / 82.8% HD shots
2008-09
Biron: PK: 90.0% all / 79.1% HD shots - ES: 91.8% all / 78.8% HD shot
Nittymaki: PK: 86.1% all / 77.8% HD shots - ES: 92.7% all / 79.7% HD shots

 

[Rich Nixon]

Non-Hart goalies also did better.

I know, but you said “...prior to Hart. When Hakstol was fired...” which is confusing, given that Hart was called up in response to the Western Canada Goalie Death March that also got Hak fired.

 

[Jettany]

Multiple clips definitely exist from that game with him shouting useless cliches and continually telling the players to finish checks on the Pens defensemen. Maybe it didn't make the main show, but it's somewhere.

Finishing checks on their d-men was good coaching that game. The pens were down to 4 D. A friendly reminder of that really isn’t a bad thing.

 

[Curufinwe]

You have to assume AV had something to do with the Flyers going hard after Hayes.

 

[baudib1]

Finishing checks on their d-men was good coaching that game. The pens were down to 4 D. A friendly reminder of that really isn’t a bad thing.

The fact that finishing checks is a good thing isn't the point. Anyone coaching in midget leagues can tell you that. Hell, the drunks in the cheap seats can say that. Spouting stuff like that is Bill Barber level coaching.
"Finish checks on their defensemen" isn't very relevant to strategically countering what the Pens are trying to do on the PP, which should be the main focal point of the PK coach's job.

 

[flyersfan187]

Let's say Hart, Myers, Sanheim, Provy, Patrick and Frost all turn into good to great players. Will this be the best team AV has coached in the NHL? I can't think of his teams ever being that talented but they played well anyway. Could be wrong.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Let's say Hart, Myers, Sanheim, Provy, Patrick and Frost all turn into good to great players. Will this be the best team AV has coached in the NHL? I can't think of his teams ever being that talented but they played well anyway. Could be wrong.

I would say the biggest advantage AV has had is that at both of his last two stops he’s had all time goalies in Luongo & Lundqvist with good backup’s behind them. It’s tough to say but perhaps those Vancouver had better high end talent with the Sedin’s but ultimately both teams had depth at their peak.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

Let's say Hart, Myers, Sanheim, Provy, Patrick and Frost all turn into good to great players. Will this be the best team AV has coached in the NHL? I can't think of his teams ever being that talented but they played well anyway. Could be wrong.

The Canucks had two Hart Trophy caliber players (Hart and Lindsay winners), a Selke winner, and a Vezina caliber goalie that was also a Hart finalist. That was a deep team with one of the best fourth lines in the NHL at the time.

And it wasn't just for one year that the team was solid from top to bottom.

The Flyers have to have a lot of dominos to fall to match that team. The Flyers have the prospect pedigree to fill in the holes they currently have, but the players need to step up and grab those spots.

 

[Appleyard]

Ask the Flyers: Players share early thoughts on new coach...

 

[renberg]

The article was a good idea but until these guys get to camp, who knows how they’ll play for him and then what they’ll think of him. Jake had better get ready to dial it in every night for the entire game or he’s going to have someone doing serious chewing on his tail. AV is going to have these guys competing over every inch of the ice for sixty minutes. This whole bit of slagging off at the start of the game thing is over.

 

[hatcher]

The article was a good idea but until these guys get to camp, who knows how they’ll play for him and then what they’ll think of him. Jake had better get ready to dial it in every night for the entire game or he’s going to have someone doing serious chewing on his tail. AV is going to have these guys competing over every inch of the ice for sixty minutes. This whole bit of slagging off at the start of the game thing is over.

The older core will get it if they float they way they do.

 

[Curufinwe]

System Analysis: Vigneault on Identity and Preparation

 

[Curufinwe]

"Ideally, I like to pair a left shot defenseman with a right shot defenseman, on their natural side. With Chuck bringing in [Matt] Niskanen and [Justin] Braun, we might be able to do that on all three of our pairs," he said.

"When you have guys who can play some of those tough minutes and do the hard things that don't really show up for them on the [stat] sheet, it can make things easier on other guys to do their thing. Shift to shift, it's like putting together a puzzle," Vigneault said.

"I said this when I took the job: I want to win, now and in the future. I wasn't looking for a rebuilding situation. I'm here to win a Stanley Cup, and the Flyers can be that team. I wouldn't have come to a team where I didn't think there will be the total commitment to doing that. We've got a lot of work to do, but we've got a good roster. Chuck, all of our coaches, our players and me personally, we all want the same thing. I am really excited to get going with our group," Vigneault said.

 

[Adam Warlock]

System Analysis: Vigneault on Identity and Preparation

Click link. Ctrl F "heavy". No matches found.

The new staff has to prove themselves...but no more Hak still brings a smile to my face.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Does Braun's shot even matter?

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

"Ideally, I like to pair a left shot defenseman with a right shot defenseman, on their natural side. With Chuck bringing in [Matt] Niskanen and [Justin] Braun, we might be able to do that on all three of our pairs," he said.

"When you have guys who can play some of those tough minutes and do the hard things that don't really show up for them on the [stat] sheet, it can make things easier on other guys to do their thing. Shift to shift, it's like putting together a puzzle," Vigneault said.

"I said this when I took the job: I want to win, now and in the future. I wasn't looking for a rebuilding situation. I'm here to win a Stanley Cup, and the Flyers can be that team. I wouldn't have come to a team where I didn't think there will be the total commitment to doing that. We've got a lot of work to do, but we've got a good roster. Chuck, all of our coaches, our players and me personally, we all want the same thing. I am really excited to get going with our group," Vigneault said.

Those comments fit with why I was apprehensive about the AV hiring: he is not a coach for a rebuilding team.

The moves the Flyers have made since the hiring accelerated the compete window at the expense of giving multiple young players long looks this season (barring injuries). We'll see how it plays out, but I am more confident of AV's potential with this roster now than the day he was hired.

 

[Tripod]

everything here sounds good. Time will tell if he stays with all those thoughts/ideas.

 

[FlyerNutter]

everything here sounds good. Time will tell if he stays with all those thoughts/ideas.

Proof will come throughout the season.

Hell even Hakstol and Stevens had decent things to say when they were initially hired.

I’m more worried about Therrien than any of them.