Alain Vigneault Named Head Coach Part 2

Rebels57

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And if they don't add anymore forwards, having Hartman with them will give them someone who goes into the corners and has some scoring ability.

Imagine this though if the franchise had some real balls lol

Giroux - Couturier - Konecny
Farabee - Patrick - Voracek
JVR - Frost - Lindblom
Raffl - Laughton - Hartman

If we miss out on top UFAs and trade targets, id rather see this group than adding a guy like Hayes.
 

deadhead

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Hayes would actually be a good fit at 3C who could move to 3RW.
Problem is he isn't worth giving a 6x6 contract for that role.
 

Ghosts Beer

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Going with Patrick-Frost at 2 & 3C is a massive gamble at two vital positions. It’s basing those crucial roles on hype rather than reality.

Patrick has 30 & 31 point seasons to his name. He also is an injury risk.

Frost is 20 years old & has never played a professional game, let alone proved he can be an effective 2-way, top 3 center on a contending NHL team against older, bigger, stronger, best league in the world competition.

If Patrick only got 31 points as a more touted prospect at age 20 in the NHL, while having a year of NHL experience, how can you possibly count on a smaller Frost to do more as a rookie?

People thought Patrick would be ready to be a good NHL 2C last season; the Flyers relied on it; & he wasn’t ready for that role. As such, 2C was & still is a gaping weakness for the Flyers. Some fans never learn & are eager to make the same mistake the very next season. It exemplifies how much fans overrate their teams’ most hyped prospects.

Patrick should be this team’s 3C until he actually proves he can be consistently relied on as a contender-level 2C. Likewise, you can’t risk a full season of Frost at 3C without seeing him play a pro game.
 

deadhead

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Sure you can, how many teams have more than 4 players with 40+ ES points. Very few, including both SC finalists.

Boston: Marchand (59), Krecji (57), Pastrnak (48), Bergeron (45), next two - DeBrusk (31), Heinen (27)
St. Louis: ROR (52), Tarasenko (46), Schenn (42), Perron (32), Schwartz (31), Bozak (30)
Philly: Giroux (61), Couts (58), Voracek (48), TK (41), JVR (35 in 66g), Lindblom (30), Laughton (30)

Our forward scoring is just fine, anything Patrick and Frost contribute is a bonus, not a necessity.
And Patrick is already above average defensively, while Frost has a reputation as a high IQ, two way player.

What killed us was goalie play and sloppy defense, not a lack of scoring by forwards.
 

Ghosts Beer

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Sure you can, how many teams have more than 4 players with 40+ ES points. Very few, including both SC finalists.

Boston: Marchand (59), Krecji (57), Pastrnak (48), Bergeron (45), next two - DeBrusk (31), Heinen (27)
St. Louis: ROR (52), Tarasenko (46), Schenn (42), Perron (32), Schwartz (31), Bozak (30)
Philly: Giroux (61), Couts (58), Voracek (48), TK (41), JVR (35 in 66g), Lindblom (30), Laughton (30)

Our forward scoring is just fine, anything Patrick and Frost contribute is a bonus, not a necessity.
And Patrick is already above average defensively, while Frost has a reputation as a high IQ, two way player.

What killed us was goalie play and sloppy defense, not a lack of scoring by forwards.
No, you cannot legitimately contend for the East crown with a 31 point 2C & a 20 year old 3C who has never played a professional game.
 

Larry44

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No, you cannot legitimately contend for the East crown with a 31 point 2C & a 20 year old 3C who has never played a professional game.
Why not? They aren’t going to contend for a Cup for a couple more years anyway. Hart and all the young players, esp the D, are going to need some seasoning for the team to be a true contender. That experience will come with making the playoffs first, then learning from defeat - just like every other team.

Scott, Homer and Chuckles think throwing around some cash to add a couple vets is going to change that timeline, but they are dreaming. It’s only going to block some of the kids, who are, collectively, a couple years away.
 

Ghosts Beer

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Why not? They aren’t going to contend for a Cup for a couple more years anyway. Hart and all the young players, esp the D, are going to need some seasoning for the team to be a true contender. That experience will come with making the playoffs first, then learning from defeat - just like every other team.

Scott, Homer and Chuckles think throwing around some cash to add a couple vets is going to change that timeline, but they are dreaming. It’s only going to block some of the kids, who are, collectively, a couple years away.
Then you might as well trade Giroux & Voracek to both give them a chance to win & go all-in on a rebuild.

You can’t expect to contend with a 31 point 2C when your rivals have Crosby/Malkin, Bergeron/Krejci, Matthews/Tavares, Backstrom/Kuznetsov, Barkov/Trocheck, etc. When the Flyers won the Cup, they had Clarke & MacLeish.

Nolan Patrick is not a 2C yet. Maybe he will become one, but you can’t rely on it. And Frost can’t be expected to be any better than Patrick at age 20.
 

Rebels57

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Why not? They aren’t going to contend for a Cup for a couple more years anyway. Hart and all the young players, esp the D, are going to need some seasoning for the team to be a true contender. That experience will come with making the playoffs first, then learning from defeat - just like every other team.

Scott, Homer and Chuckles think throwing around some cash to add a couple vets is going to change that timeline, but they are dreaming. It’s only going to block some of the kids, who are, collectively, a couple years away.

2 years away from 2 years away. Classic.
 

Larry44

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Then you might as well trade Giroux & Voracek to both give them a chance to win & go all-in on a rebuild.

You can’t expect to contend with a 31 point 2C when your rivals have Crosby/Malkin, Bergeron/Krejci, Matthews/Tavares, Backstrom/Kuznetsov, Barkov/Trocheck, etc. When the Flyers won the Cup, they had Clarke & MacLeish.

Nolan Patrick is not a 2C yet. Maybe he will become one, but you can’t rely on it. And Frost can’t be expected to be any better than Patrick at age 20.
The Flyers owe Giroux and Voracek nothing but $8M+ per year for 3 and 5 years respectively. It's a shame that Giroux isn't fast or big enough to continue playing C at a high level or depth at C wouldn't be an issue.

Regardless, Couturier is the best overall player on the team and deservedly logs the most ice at F. But in the absence of true superstars around him (McDavid/Crosby etc), the Flyers are going to have to try to win with overwhelming depth, two way team play and great goaltending - and hope a couple of the prospects at F exceed even their already high expectations.

I have no doubt at all that Patrick will be as good or better than Couts some day soon. He's committed defensively, skates better and shows better early offensive talent. He just needs to avoid October concussion season, that's all. Frost needs to earn a job at camp, and I think he can. He has a ton of skill and smarts, so we'll see if playing with smarter players will let him blossom even further. He might need part of a year with the Phantoms, though, so it's on him.

The point is, THIS YEAR is not the year to panic and go all in on mediocre free agents on long expensive contracts.

This year, they need to find a reliable vet backup for Hart, to play a year or two until Sandstrom is ready to join the club. They need to let as many kids play as possible. Their chances of winning it all will come with a Hart/Sandstrom tandem in a couple years time. They can make the playoffs this year easily with Hart and a good backup, health permitting, obviously.

On D, Provorov, Sanheim, Gostisbehere and Myers just need more experience to be a potentially dominant top 4. Patience is still the key.

Then add guys like Morin, Hagg, and Friedman for depth, and good prospects like Hogberg and Zamula coming, and you've got the makings of a playoff team this year and a contending D, in 2020-21 or 2021-22. If they decide to re-up Gudas, that's all the extra vet toughness they need, given the high quality and balance of talent of the other players.

At C, Couts, Patrick, Frost and Laughton will be a good group now, giving Frost and Patrick enough ice time to develop. It's not like they are the only C prospects either. Vorobyev, Rubtsov and Laczynski are good hockey players, who I can see growing into solid players for the 3rd line or even higher, if they hit. Vorobyev made the team out of camp last year, so he'll be very motivated to try to do it again.

At wing, we've got vets like Giroux, Voracek and JVR long term and young players like Konecny, Lindblom and Hartman in the lineup. Raffl is the vet 12-13F. Farabee, Ratcliffe and Allison all look like can't miss middle 6 at worst wingers. All it will take is for one or two of the others: Aube-Kubel, Bailey, Cates, Kase, Laberge, Bunnaman, Twarynski, Sushko, Strome, to make the jump to NHL regular and the pipeline is all set.

Hexy's plan to clear cap space and rebuild the team through the draft worked. He made critical errors in judgement by refusing to fire the coach when it clearly wasn't working, and by relying on an older goalie coming off surgery to carry the workload with another injury-prone backup. It cost him is his job when Scott saw empty seats and the team at the bottom of the standings and panicked.

I dread Homer having any role in the team at all, and it's clear Fletcher is there to be his marionette. Let's hope they don't screw it up. In the next couple years, we're going to have an elite D corps, superb goaltending and depth, balance and skill at forward, it's just going to take a little more time.
 
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rinaldo

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The Flyers owe Giroux and Voracek nothing but $8M+ per year for 3 and 5 years respectively. It's a shame that Giroux isn't fast or big enough to continue playing C at a high level or depth at C wouldn't be an issue.

Regardless, Couturier is the best overall player on the team and deservedly logs the most ice at F. But in the absence of true superstars around him (McDavid/Crosby etc), the Flyers are going to have to try to win with overwhelming depth, two way team play and great goaltending - and hope a couple of the prospects at F exceed even their already high expectations.

I have no doubt at all that Patrick will be as good or better than Couts some day soon. He's committed defensively, skates better and shows better early offensive talent. He just needs to avoid October concussion season, that's all. Frost needs to earn a job at camp, and I think he can. He has a ton of skill and smarts, so we'll see if playing with smarter players will let him blossom even further. He might need part of a year with the Phantoms, though, so it's on him.

The point is, THIS YEAR is not the year to panic and go all in on mediocre free agents on long expensive contracts.

This year, they need to find a reliable vet backup for Hart, to play a year or two until Sandstrom is ready to join the club. They need to let as many kids play as possible. Their chances of winning it all will come with a Hart/Sandstrom tandem in a couple years time. They can make the playoffs this year easily with Hart and a good backup, health permitting, obviously.

On D, Provorov, Sanheim, Gostisbehere and Myers just need more experience to be a potentially dominant top 4. Patience is still the key.

Then add guys like Morin, Hagg, and Friedman for depth, and good prospects like Hogberg and Zamula coming, and you've got the makings of a playoff team this year and a contending D, in 2020-21 or 2021-22. If they decide to re-up Gudas, that's all the extra vet toughness they need, given the high quality and balance of talent of the other players.

At C, Couts, Patrick, Frost and Laughton will be a good group now, giving Frost and Patrick enough ice time to develop. It's not like they are the only C prospects either. Vorobyev, Rubtsov and Laczynski are good hockey players, who I can see growing into solid players for the 3rd line or even higher, if they hit. Vorobyev made the team out of camp last year, so he'll be very motivated to try to do it again.

At wing, we've got vets like Giroux, Voracek and JVR long term and young players like Konecny, Lindblom and Hartman in the lineup. Raffl is the vet 12-13F. Farabee, Ratcliffe and Allison all look like can't miss middle 6 at worst wingers. All it will take is for one or two of the others: Aube-Kubel, Bailey, Cates, Kase, Laberge, Bunnaman, Twarynski, Sushko, Strome, to make the jump to NHL regular and the pipeline is all set.

Hexy's plan to clear cap space and rebuild the team through the draft worked. He made critical errors in judgement by refusing to fire the coach when it clearly wasn't working, and by relying on an older goalie coming off surgery to carry the workload with another injury-prone backup. It cost him is his job when Scott saw empty seats and the team at the bottom of the standings and panicked.

I dread Homer having any role in the team at all, and it's clear Fletcher is there to be his marionette. Let's hope they don't screw it up. In the next couple years, we're going to have an elite D corps, superb goaltending and depth, balance and skill at forward, it's just going to take a little more time.
what are the chances everyone of those prospects and young players pan out? the chances are higher they dont.
 
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deadhead

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The odds that Frost pans out are pretty high, same with Farabee, that's why they're top prospects. Same with Myers.
You can watch them play and know they have top level NHL talent.

Ratcliffe, Morin are more uncertain, the talent is there, but they have unique bodies and have to grow into them.

Rubtsov, Kase, Allison have NHL talent, in their case it's a matter of staying healthy.

Laczynski, Hogberg have to be signed, but should play in the NHL.

Vorobyev, Bunnaman, Strome, Sushko are more bubble guys, they have to prove themselves in the AHL.

Zamula, Ersson, etc. are futures, too far away to worry about the next couple years.

You don't need them all to work out, the top guys plus a couple question marks for depth is all you need
 

deadhead

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If Patrick turns out only to be a 40+ ES scorer with well above average defense, that would be just fine.
Most centers who score 50+ ES points are average to below average on defense.

Don't think it's a big stretch for a guy who had 29 points in 73 games at age 20 to get to 40 ES points.
 

Larry44

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The Flyers will be very lucky if that happens. The odds of any player becoming better than Couturier aren’t good, IMO.
I don't think it's luck, just health. I remember very well all the years of early Couts, seeing glimpses of offensive talent under the defensive excellence and all the arguments on here about him 'only' being a 3C, will never score, we should trade him now, etc. All it took was some patience and he pushed G off to the wing.

I watch Patrick, as I have since his Jr. days, and see a more talented offensive player at this stage than the glimpses Couts showed. He's clearly got a great attitude and is driven to succeed. He's also cognizant of the need to play great D, which is awesome. I'm not against adding a vet C on a short term contract, or a vet D either, I just don't want them to panic and rush to sign someone because Scott is freaking out and breathing down their necks to get 'someone, anyone.'

I feel the same about coaching. Fletcher didn't even really look very hard for the best candidate to get the most out of a young team. He met with a couple guys, struck out on Q and rushed to sign Vigneault because he had the 'best resume' and not because he was the best fit for the personnel or the team's style. It was like he just signed him to appease the accountants in risk management. Here's a 'proven' coach (who never won anything despite having great veteran teams and great goaltending), let's pay him $5M x 5 years to snag him off Buffalo. I hope it works out, but again, I don't trust any of them, so I'm very skeptical.
 
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SolidSnakeUS

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Imagine this though if the franchise had some real balls lol

Giroux - Couturier - Konecny
Farabee - Patrick - Voracek
JVR - Frost - Lindblom
Raffl - Laughton - Hartman

If we miss out on top UFAs and trade targets, id rather see this group than adding a guy like Hayes.

I would love to see this. All lines are good and NHL level. Good shit.
 
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Ghosts Beer

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I don't think it's luck, just health. I remember very well all the years of early Couts, seeing glimpses of offensive talent under the defensive excellence and all the arguments on here about him 'only' being a 3C, will never score, we should trade him now, etc. All it took was some patience and he pushed G off to the wing.

I watch Patrick, as I have since his Jr. days, and see a more talented offensive player at this stage than the glimpses Couts showed. He's clearly got a great attitude and is driven to succeed. He's also cognizant of the need to play great D, which is awesome. I'm not against adding a vet C on a short term contract, or a vet D either, I just don't want them to panic and rush to sign someone because Scott is freaking out and breathing down their necks to get 'someone, anyone.'

I feel the same about coaching. Fletcher didn't even really look very hard for the best candidate to get the most out of a young team. He met with a couple guys, struck out on Q and rushed to sign Vigneault because he had the 'best resume' and not because he was the best fit for the personnel or the team's style. It was like he just signed him to appease the accountants in risk management. Here's a 'proven' coach (who never won anything despite having great veteran teams and great goaltending), let's pay him $5M x 5 years to snag him off Buffalo. I hope it works out, but again, I don't trust any of them, so I'm very skeptical.
I think you’re being way too harsh on Vigneault & on Fletcher for hiring him.

Why do you think Vigneault is the wrong fit for the style Fletcher wants to play? It’s not like Fletcher isn’t familiar with Vigneault, competing against his Canucks for 4 seasons in the West. It’s not like he didn’t meet with Vigneault at length to discuss the team & his philosophies before hiring him.

You strangely seem to be holding Vigneault’s experience against him. But surely you can see why a new GM wouldn’t want to replace Hakstol with another unproven NHL coach. I don’t think there’s any evidence to support the notion that Fletcher only hired Vigneault to appease Scott & not because he feels Vigneault was his best option.
 
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Larry44

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I think you’re being way too harsh on Vigneault & on Fletcher for hiring him.

Why do you think Vigneault is the wrong fit for the style Fletcher wants to play? It’s not like Fletcher isn’t familiar with Vigneault, competing against his Canucks for 4 seasons in the West. It’s not like he didn’t meet with Vigneault at length to discuss the team & his philosophies before hiring him.

You strangely seem to be holding Vigneault’s experience against him. But surely you can see why a new GM wouldn’t want to replace Hakstol with another unproven NHL coach. I don’t think there’s any evidence to support the notion that Fletcher only hired Vigneault to appease Scott & not because he feels Vigneault was his best option.
Never liked Vigneault as a coach and was never worried about our coach being outcoached by him. Hearing how he mistreated young players isn't encouraging, given our lineup. Tanner Glass, come on down!

I'm not against AV's experience, just that he never accomplished anything while acquiring it. He had Lundqvist in his prime on good teams and managed to lose out annually to underdogs (not that I minded seeing Henrik's annual end of season tearfest).

Fletcher said, and I can't be bothered to look up the article, something to the effect that he 'spoke to a couple people, had lunch with AV and decided he'd found his coach.'

I'm not surprised that he jumped at the consensus vet coach. They wanted to throw a boatload of money at Q (and did apparently but he rejected it) so they threw it at the next status candidate.

I'm more concerned about Fletcher's lack of success as a GM previously. He was on no one's radar as a potential GM, except Homer. We've got a GM who couldn't get it done in Minnesota, an AGM known for his crappy draft record, and a coach with a great regular season record and no Cups who hired for assistants an obnoxious dork and a cueball nobody.

Yay? Meh, sorry if I'm not excited.
 

Ghosts Beer

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Never liked Vigneault as a coach and was never worried about our coach being outcoached by him. Hearing how he mistreated young players isn't encouraging, given our lineup. Tanner Glass, come on down!

I'm not against AV's experience, just that he never accomplished anything while acquiring it. He had Lundqvist in his prime on good teams and managed to lose out annually to underdogs (not that I minded seeing Henrik's annual end of season tearfest).

Fletcher said, and I can't be bothered to look up the article, something to the effect that he 'spoke to a couple people, had lunch with AV and decided he'd found his coach.'

I'm not surprised that he jumped at the consensus vet coach. They wanted to throw a boatload of money at Q (and did apparently but he rejected it) so they threw it at the next status candidate.

I'm more concerned about Fletcher's lack of success as a GM previously. He was on no one's radar as a potential GM, except Homer. We've got a GM who couldn't get it done in Minnesota, an AGM known for his crappy draft record, and a coach with a great regular season record and no Cups who hired for assistants an obnoxious dork and a cueball nobody.

Yay? Meh, sorry if I'm not excited.

Vigneault never accomplished anything? What, because he doesn't have his name etched on the Cup like Dan Bylsma? Did Barry Trotz' 18 seasons without a Cup mean he would've been a poor choice as head coach prior to last season, because he "never accomplished anything"?

I'd say three Presidents' Trophies for the best record in the league and a Jack Adams award as best coach are accomplishments. He took both the Canucks and Rangers to Stanley Cup finals. Lost a Cup final to the Bruins in 7 games -- what, if a couple of bounces went differently in that Game 7 he's suddenly a different coach who "accomplished something"?

And those Rangers teams may have had Lundqvist, but they weren't terrific teams, and he still got them to the Cup final his first season and back to the Conference Final his 2nd season. You're acting like they were a great team that underachieved each season, whereas I'd say they overachieved under Vigneault.

And Vigneault's alleged mistreatment of young players has been debunked as completely exaggerated.

Just like I don't get your beef with Vigneault's background, I also don't get your beef with Fletcher's hiring process. He made a list of his top choices. He was familiar with Vigneault and had him at the top of his non-Quenneville list. He wanted a proven NHL coach where there'd be no guessing as to what they'd get. And I think Fletcher was quoted as saying he'd put Vigneault "right up there with anybody" among the best coaches in the league.

So he flew to Florida and met with Vigneault over a couple days. They got along great, Fletcher liked what he heard, and he hired him. I don't see the issue. He pinpointed the guy he wanted and got him. It's not like a longer, more drawn out interview process was going to change anything. I mean, Vigneault has a lengthy NHL career for Fletcher to base his decision on. Hopefully that is a bigger factor in the hiring process than a dragged-out job interview.
 

tucson83

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No, you cannot legitimately contend for the East crown with a 31 point 2C & a 20 year old 3C who has never played a professional game.

i dont get it either, half of prospects are probably going to be in the ahl realistically, if there's injuries im sure some of them will play, but playing them for the sake of playing them is most dumbest decision because it will hurt the team, [mod].
 
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