Alain Vigneault Named Head Coach Part 2

[Harhis]

I have a feeling Flyers are going to be really good going forward. We have a deep and talented team and there is still a lot of room to grow with so many young players.

Having real coach will have huge effect.

 

[Stizzle]

System Analysis: Vigneault on Identity and Preparation

It really burns me up when the narrative is "Couturier moved to 2C" because Giroux went back to center for a while.

Just like how some in the media claimed NP was the 1C at times last year because he played on a line with Giroux.

Just lazy and stupid.

 

[Stizzle]

Delete. Double post.

 

[Curufinwe]

It really burns me up when the narrative is "Couturier moved to 2C" because Giroux went back to center for a while.

Just like how some in the media claimed NP was the 1C at times last year because he played on a line with Giroux.

Just lazy and stupid.

Not as bad as when Couturier allegedly became the 3C behind Filppula according to Diamond Dave Isaac, and then finally felt comfortable according to Bill Celement.

 

[Curufinwe]

I couldn't find the clip I remember of Clement, but this less than two year old article should generate plenty of chuckles and puzzled expressions. Especially the bits about him playing on the wing, and needing Flip's help to win faceoffs (he was already a 55% faceoff guy in 16-17).

Why Sean Couturier will thrive on the Flyers' third tine

Couturier has never been more than a third line center, potentially second line winger. There is nothing wrong with that, unless you’re the number 8 pick in a draft and expected to be more than just that.

After that season came a slew of average, if that, seasons where he posted 39 points in 2013-14, 37 in 2014-15, 39 in 2015-16 and 34 this past season. The offensive numbers are nowhere near where they were in juniors. Why is someone who played at almost a 2 point per game place in the QMJHL posting sub-40 point seasons six years into their professional career?

Gee, I wonder if it had anything to do with him playing 63 games in 15-16, and 66 in 16-17.

Now that Schenn is a blue, and Nolan Patrick is a part of the orange and black, where does that leave Couturier? Well, it’ll probably equate to more of the same. Patrick will likely slot into the 2nd center role while Couturier stays on that third line, likely paired with Jordan Weal and Valtteri Filppula.

With the addition of Nolan Patrick, who is likely to slot in on the second line ahead of Sean Couturier, it takes a little pressure off of Couturier knowing that he is standing firm in the third line center position, and not being asked to jump into a second line situation just yet. Sure, he could slot in on the wing also, but those positions seem destined to be filled by Simmonds and potentially Swedish rookie Oskar Lindblom.

Two years later and Patrick still isn't likely to slot into the second line center spot.

However, Couturier is at his best when he is centering the third line, and not to mention, centering Valtteri Filppula and Jordan Weal. He will be in a position to play his game with no added pressure because Filppula is a very versatile forward who can take faceoffs as well, and Jordan Weal will be able to score from his side of the ice.

 

[Curufinwe]

With only 16 games to go, AV's 19-20 Flyers are just .002 behind Lavi's 10-11 Flyers for the best regular season record of this decade.

NHL.com Stats

The PP wasn't very good in 10-11, but the PK was great.

 

[Curufinwe]

Bull Shit Hockey admitting that their AV hot take was absurd in retrospect. Of course, it was also absurd at the time.

I was wrong about Alain Vigneault

To be specific, that day I tweeted that I thought he was not only going to bench Travis Konecny and Oskar Lindblom regularly, but also have Robert Hagg playing top pair minutes with Ivan Provorov this season.

 

[Rebels57]

Bull Shit Hockey admitting that their AV hot take was absurd in retrospect. Of course, it was also absurd at the time.

I was wrong about Alain Vigneault

Brad Keffer usually has pretty good takes if you follow his personal Twitter. Very much analytics based but not a snob about it.

 

[deadhead]

Maybe the reason AV didn't play young players in NY was that after the first wave, management didn't supply him with a lot of good, young players.
1st season in NY: Stepan (23), McDonagh (24), Kreider (22), JT Miller (20),
2nd season: Hayes (22), Miller (21), Fast (23)
4th season: Skjei (22), Buchnevich (21),
5th season: Pionk (22)
DuClair - traded for Yandle, DuClair has one good season in Arizona, then bounced, below average defensively, inconsistent offense
McIlrath - flop

When AV had good young players, they played, maybe not as fast as fans would prefer (see Frost), but that's typical, fans fall in love with shiny new toys, HCs are more demanding.
The FO wasn't finding them. No 1st rd picks from 2013-2016, and no NHL players from the 2014-2016 drafts.

 

[Curufinwe]

Lindblom hadn't been benched since Hak’s last game as coach so the idea that AV would come in and start regularly benching him as a 23 year old was preposterous. Even if you didn’t think Oskar would break out right away as the 2LW, he’s such a responsible two-way guy that getting moved down to the bottom 6 was as far as any real coach would go.

 

[Here4ThaLids]

I was thinking about posting a mea culpa one of these days and this seems like a good place to do it. My position when AV was hired was approximately 'he's a competent NHL-level coach who can absolutely win you a Cup, but practices the Dark Arts and I don't like him personally.'

He had several bad eggs in Vancouver and they were allowed to be bad eggs without consequence, and the Bruins themselves will tell you that galvanized their team in the Final. Flash forward: Tortorella's Rangers, for as much as I rooted against them, were largely clean, honest, and to be respected; the first season AV took over largely Torts' team, the diving, embellishment, and sneaky-dirty crept in, as if ordained. I am a firm believer that the fish rots from the head, and my brain connected those Canuck and Ranger dots.

Very happy to have been wrong. This Flyers team is mouthy but generally clean and honorable. Has AV evolved or does the team/franchise simply have better leadership in place?

 

[NYCFlyer]

It's fun to look back at the Fletcher, AV and Hayes threads and see where you were right and where you weren't. It's so hard to predict how things will go given all the variables but given how bad our entire coaching staff was adding three highly experienced very successful coaches was most likely going to be a big improvement.

 

[NYCFlyer]

Double post

 

[kudymen]

Bad news, coronavirus does not kill strawmen.

 

[Rich Nixon]

The lookbacks are funny, this place handled the AV hiring far more intelligently and rationally than Twitter/"Flyers Twitter" did or ever does...On Broad Street Hockey, though:

f*** that. Seriously. It's not good writing or good analysis. Their f***ing Editor in Chief published a doom-and-gloom Vigneault hiring interview with noted NHL expert, um, Some Other Rangers Fan Blogger. Seriously? You can do the job from a free blog. You have credentials and a URL: Interview some former players or colleagues, not a jilted fan. I worked for a startup magazine and was able to pick up a phone and end up with a billionaire or even a decently high-level government official on the other line by the end of the day if I needed it. You wanna cover hockey? Do it, then. No one's stopping you from creating actual, informative content. We live in a very convenient world these days, it's easier than ever to make those connects.

The Brad fellow is good enough at listing strings of analytics, but I think he's just dead damn wrong about hockey more often than he's right. I remember him barfing out a wall of analytics before declaring that "If the question is who the better player is right now, based on their last three seasons, for me the answer is Gudas." Which was wrong then and is wrong now and was wrong on the day Niskanen played his worst game while Gudas played his best--no matter how seriously you take various alterations of "shot attempts divided by minutes." There's merit there, don't get me wrong, but it's like looking at a whole bunch of automotive fuel efficiency splits and then deciding you know what the best car is. Hey, the Sentra can get pretty far on a tank of gas, it's probably safe, fast, and stylish.

Analyzing and commenting and predicting and all that is tricky, but we basically live in a take economy and everyone's primary source is themself. No one wants to tell an accurate or interesting story, no one wants to look at anything holistically. Just a bunch of people closing their eyes and throwing darts at a board and praying one will get close enough to the target to prove that their methodology is actually the correct one.

Good on the Brad kid for writing his "I was wrong" column, but jeez--maybe evaluate whether you had any reason to believe the shit you were spouting in the first place. The criticisms that shaped his initial reaction were the same uninformed fan grievance shlock that he was contributing to, and that the person running the site was so willfully amplifying. It was ludicrous then, too, but one of these days man, the dart will hit the board. Just shut those eyes real tight and keep firing I guess.

 

[Striiker]

I wonder how long this AV honeymoon phase we're in will last.

He certainly seemed to get a disproportionate amount of credit for the teams success all year long and the same kind of stuff people would have rightfully crucified Hakstol for was being forgiven/ignored by many. There were a handful of really concerning and inexcusable things that happened this year behind the bench... stuff with a clear negative impact on the team. Many of the concerns people voiced about this staff ended up being valid.

Being happy that the team is winning and evaluating individuals (players or staff) can and should be separate. Winning doesn't mean everything is good and losing doesn't mean everything is bad.

 

[Appleyard]

He established an offensive system that centred around shots from in close and east-west plays were encouraged.
He was not scared to give kids a bigger role

Basically they were the two thinks Hakstol was most slated for and AV rectified both.

Ofc he was not perfect... but had a 3-zone system that was pretty effective (Hakstol's was v.good for 1.5 zones, but useless in the OZ for modern NHL) and trusted Lindblom, Sanheim, Myers, Aube-Kubel and Farabee.


Flyers were "winning" in 2017-18... and people still wanted Hakstol's head. As it did not seem that the "method" for winning for sustainable. I.E. the teams top ~6 players carrying everyone else on their backs. I think that is the main difference now.

Nothing is perfect, but it seems like a more sustainable approach going forward than an offensive system that relied so unbelievably much on point shots it was funny, and having difficultly evaluating who was an effective NHLer.

 

[TCTC]

For the first time in years we're not only a playoff team but we're also playing like a playoff team and we have to thank AV for that.
Of course, some of the players Fletcher brought in last summer were key additions that made us better, but Hakstol would've still found a way to make us look like a bubble team.

 

[Curufinwe]

The lookbacks are funny, this place handled the AV hiring far more intelligently and rationally than Twitter/"Flyers Twitter" did or ever does...On Broad Street Hockey, though:

f*** that. Seriously. It's not good writing or good analysis. Their f***ing Editor in Chief published a doom-and-gloom Vigneault hiring interview with noted NHL expert, um, Some Other Rangers Fan Blogger. Seriously? You can do the job from a free blog. You have credentials and a URL: Interview some former players or colleagues, not a jilted fan. I worked for a startup magazine and was able to pick up a phone and end up with a billionaire or even a decently high-level government official on the other line by the end of the day if I needed it. You wanna cover hockey? Do it, then. No one's stopping you from creating actual, informative content. We live in a very convenient world these days, it's easier than ever to make those connects.

The Brad fellow is good enough at listing strings of analytics, but I think he's just dead damn wrong about hockey more often than he's right. I remember him barfing out a wall of analytics before declaring that "If the question is who the better player is right now, based on their last three seasons, for me the answer is Gudas." Which was wrong then and is wrong now and was wrong on the day Niskanen played his worst game while Gudas played his best--no matter how seriously you take various alterations of "shot attempts divided by minutes." There's merit there, don't get me wrong, but it's like looking at a whole bunch of automotive fuel efficiency splits and then deciding you know what the best car is. Hey, the Sentra can get pretty far on a tank of gas, it's probably safe, fast, and stylish.

Analyzing and commenting and predicting and all that is tricky, but we basically live in a take economy and everyone's primary source is themself. No one wants to tell an accurate or interesting story, no one wants to look at anything holistically. Just a bunch of people closing their eyes and throwing darts at a board and praying one will get close enough to the target to prove that their methodology is actually the correct one.

Good on the Brad kid for writing his "I was wrong" column, but jeez--maybe evaluate whether you had any reason to believe the shit you were spouting in the first place. The criticisms that shaped his initial reaction were the same uninformed fan grievance shlock that he was contributing to, and that the person running the site was so willfully amplifying. It was ludicrous then, too, but one of these days man, the dart will hit the board. Just shut those eyes real tight and keep firing I guess.

This is fantastic post that really hits the nail on the head.

To elaborate a little bit more on the Lindblom point, we should remember he played 81/82 games under Hakstol and Gordon as a 22 year old. It took Hak completely losing his mind in his final game for Lindblom to get parked in the stands. So if you are claiming that Vigneault will regularly bench him as a 23 year old, you are also saying that AV is a worse NHL head coach than Hakstol and Gordon.

Forget Gudas; that is a "MacDonald was a better dman than Niskanen in 18-19" level take.

 

[Striiker]

He established an offensive system that centred around shots from in close and east-west plays were encouraged.
He was not scared to give kids a bigger role

Basically they were the two thinks Hakstol was most slated for and AV rectified both.

Ofc he was not perfect... but had a 3-zone system that was pretty effective (Hakstol's was v.good for 1.5 zones, but useless in the OZ for modern NHL) and trusted Lindblom, Sanheim, Myers, Aube-Kubel and Farabee.


Flyers were "winning" in 2017-18... and people still wanted Hakstol's head. As it did not seem that the "method" for winning for sustainable. I.E. the teams top ~6 players carrying everyone else on their backs. I think that is the main difference now.

Nothing is perfect, but it seems like a more sustainable approach going forward than an offensive system that relied so unbelievably much on point shots it was funny, and having difficultly evaluating who was an effective NHLer.

Yeah, he's better than Hakstol, of course.

My point is just that the evaluations of him alone (not compared to Hak or any other coaches) have often been "off". Too much credit for the good, not enough heat for the bad. Doesn't mean he's the worst coach ever or that he hasn't done anything right, just that his current reputation is a little more positive than deserved. Nothing wrong with people liking him, so long as it's a result of an accurate evaluation of the good/bad.

 

[Rich Nixon]

This is fantastic post that really hits the nail on the head.

To elaborate a little bit more on the Lindblom point, we should remember he played 81/82 games under Hakstol and Gordon as a 22 year old. It took Hak completely losing his mind in his final game for Lindblom to get parked in the stands. So if you are claiming that Vigneault will regularly bench him as a 23 year old, you are also saying that AV is a worse NHL head coach than Hakstol and Gordon.

Forget Gudas; that is a "MacDonald was a better dman than Niskanen in 18-19" level take.

That was particularly egregious. Like, who the f*** put that in your head? You're supposed to be the galaxy brain smart new hockey perspectives analytics etc guy right? Well, actually, that makes sense, then. Trust no history or other knowledge, it's all bullshit, can't trust common sense--only other fan bloggers know how it really is. Blaze that path to hockey fan enlightenment, brother!

It sucks, because the old hat media--the beats, the national commentators--is really, really stale and boring, and there is a perfectly valid lane for new perspectives and focuses for hockey analysis and coverage. Instead we get the same boneheaded egoism and obsessions, it just fixates in different directions. Everything is an arbitrary ranking, nothing is informed by any outside perspective or interview. There's exceptions in both camps, obviously, but the dominant voices kinda suck.

My favorite was when I made a thread here tracking the date by which Hakstol would pass each former coach to become the "nth longest tenured Flyers coach" and within a week that simple tabulation was the basis for a couple of the Flyers fan blogs. Whoa, amazing original work guys! It's almost like you can gain perspective on situations and make serious points by looking backwards or around the league--what do they call it, context?--rather than poking around in your brain in hopes of finding new phrasing for the same complaints you've been making for months or years. You don't have to ape that from a message board, just go read something.

I tried half-heartedly to crack into the writing-Flyers-content-for-free circuit, but "free" isn't a high enough salary to devote any time to wading into the asshole that is Twitter for the necessary self-promotion. It seems you become an authority there by choosing one arbitrary analytical obsession, tweeting six times an hour, and sucking off all the other people who also do that. It probably eats up all the time that could be put towards developing deep and informative content.

 

[deadhead]

He established an offensive system that centred around shots from in close and east-west plays were encouraged.
He was not scared to give kids a bigger role

Basically they were the two thinks Hakstol was most slated for and AV rectified both.

Ofc he was not perfect... but had a 3-zone system that was pretty effective (Hakstol's was v.good for 1.5 zones, but useless in the OZ for modern NHL) and trusted Lindblom, Sanheim, Myers, Aube-Kubel and Farabee.


Flyers were "winning" in 2017-18... and people still wanted Hakstol's head. As it did not seem that the "method" for winning for sustainable. I.E. the teams top ~6 players carrying everyone else on their backs. I think that is the main difference now.

Nothing is perfect, but it seems like a more sustainable approach going forward than an offensive system that relied so unbelievably much on point shots it was funny, and having difficultly evaluating who was an effective NHLer.

The hard part is separating what is AV, what is Fletcher and what is Hextall.
That is, how much was the better talent, and how much the better coaching.

Losing Patrick and Lindblom slides the scale toward AV.
Getting Hart, Myers, NAK and Farabee is a credit to Hextall and a key element of this season's success.
Getting Hayes, Niskanen, Braun and Pitlick is a credit to Fletcher.
The improvement by TK, Sanheim, Provorov could be coaching, it also could be maturity.
The improvement by Voracek and JVR this season was mostly coaching.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The hard part is separating what is AV, what is Fletcher and what is Hextall.
That is, how much was the better talent, and how much the better coaching.

Losing Patrick and Lindblom slides the scale toward AV.
Getting Hart, Myers, NAK and Farabee is a credit to Hextall and a key element of this season's success.
Getting Hayes, Niskanen, Braun and Pitlick is a credit to Fletcher.
The improvement by TK, Sanheim, Provorov could be coaching, it also could be maturity.
The improvement by Voracek and JVR this season was mostly coaching.

I think a lot is Hextall. The guy can build a heck of a foundation, but he didn't know what to build on top of it.

 

[Striiker]

I think a lot is Hextall. The guy can build a heck of a foundation, but he didn't know what to build on top of it.

Cans
Build prospect pool
Handle cap situation
Trade
RFA Signings

Can NOTs
Assemble anything close to a competent coaching staff
Modify previously established timeline

 

[TCTC]

I think a lot is Hextall. The guy can build a heck of a foundation, but he didn't know what to build on top of it.

He also had a pretty good foundation to work with when he started though. Giroux, Voracek, Couturier, Schenn, Simmonds, Gostisbehere were all there when he took over. Some of them still are part of our core.
But he was good at providing the next wave of talent.

It's pretty telling though that Fletcher added more useful depth players in one summer than Hextall did in his entire tenure. Instead Hextall gave us all the fan favorites. Weise, Manning, Hagg, Lehtera, Filppula, White and he also had a hand in signing the biggest fan favorites of them all, MacDonald and Vandevelde.
His only saving grace was JVR.