AHL Affiliate Thread - Send them the Wolves

[Navin R Slavin]

Agreed, I just don't see the reason to leave Charlotte for a dalliance with Chicago in the interim.

Sometimes to make a deal you gotta break a deal.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Seems to be like Dundon is a span of control guy, and he's gonna work whatever deals he needs to work to have the most control possible.

I absolutely don't disagree with the theory, but isn't Chicago notorious for being a rogue franchise and prioritizing winning over prospect development and systemic congruence?

Which is why this feels like a temporary move towards a more permanent move to a situation over which Dundon has more control. Team purchase/relocation seems like one possibility, especially since COVID times might put some AHL orgs under serious stress; I'm sure there are others.

That Dundon wants to buy the Checkers? Or that he wants to buy an AHL team and move it to Greensboro?

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I absolutely don't disagree with the theory, but isn't Chicago notorious for being a rogue franchise and prioritizing winning over prospect development and systemic congruence?

Yes. Which is why it seems like a short-term deal until the long-term situation stabilizes.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I absolutely don't disagree with the theory, but isn't Chicago notorious for being a rogue franchise and prioritizing winning over prospect development and systemic congruence?


That Dundon wants to buy the Checkers? Or that he wants to buy an AHL team and move it to Greensboro?

I have no idea if it's any of that. That's just an example, one set of scenarios among many.

 

[MinJaBen]

There seems to be a lot of people assuming it has something to do with Dundon buying an AHL team. Why? Is there any evidence or is it just wishful thinking?

 

[Navin R Slavin]

No evidence. All just pure speculation -- but based on Sara's "there's a deeper story" narrative which basically invites speculation.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Like I said:

If this is about adding a few grand to the bottom line at the expense of thousands of fans, then that is a faceplant. We're talking about the kind of thing that can generationally shift a 12-year-old from being Hurricanes to being Panthers fans for the rest of their lives, or potentially even send the Checkers over the edge to relocation and eliminating that kid from being interested in hockey at all. Not to mention we're making it harder to execute callups/send-downs, and eroding team control over player development.

That's a pants-on-head stupid thing to do for an increase in the affiliation fee, in the context of an organization with a nine-figure budget.

Apparently Sara knows something that will somehow make this make sense. It must be a doozy because right now it looks really bad.

if it fits your agenda lets call what it is likely hundreds of thousands of dollars a few thousand. In all likelihood, he is alienating very little of the money spending fan base.

A lot of people has hated TD's business deals because it hurts their hearts. The dude does what is right for the Hurricanes not matter what people feel.

If a guy that "lost 10-30 million" dollars on the Hurricanes this year wants to find another way to relieve some of the burden on him, then he has that right. As long as we continue to ice successful close to the cap teams, I will not question his business decisions.

if I was a betting man, he probably lost close to 20-30 million on the team this year. I put it in quotes because he losses can be used a tax breaks on other income.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

if it fits your agenda lets call what it is likely hundreds of thousands of dollars a few thousand. In all likelihood, he is alienating very little of the money spending fan base.

A lot of people has hated TD's business deals because it hurts their hearts. The dude does what is right for the Hurricanes not matter what people feel.

If a guy that "lost 10-30 million" dollars on the Hurricanes this year wants to find another way to relieve some of the burden on him, then he has that right. As long as we continue to ice successful close to the cap teams, I will not question his business decisions.

if I was a betting man, he probably lost close to 20-30 million on the team this year. I put it in quotes because he loses can be used a tax breaks on other income.

Thanks for adding the tax breaks there. Plus other perks like private jetting to games, etc. which I would assune the franchise pays for (Well maybe not but odds are high). Then there is the big picture. Long term appreciation in the value of the franchise. Unless he gets hardup for cash like PK, he should be able to time his sale when the market is high. Rake in a nice bundle then.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Thanks for adding the tax breaks there. Plus other perks like private jetting to games, etc. which I would assune the franchise pays for (Well maybe not but odds are high). Then there is the big picture. Long term appreciation in the value of the franchise. Unless he gets hardup for cash like PK, he should be able to time his sale when the market is high. Rake in a nice bundle then.

im not a corporate money guy so I dont know all the ends and outs but, i am fascinated by it. Spent a lot of time studying it when I was doing a sports management masters.

 

[tarheelhockey]

if it fits your agenda

Stop.

lets call what it is likely hundreds of thousands of dollars a few thousand.

Says who? You don’t know and neither do I. All we know is we are talking about the budget scale of a minor league hockey team.

In all likelihood, he is alienating very little of the money spending fan base.

A lot of people has hated TD's business deals because it hurts their hearts. The dude does what is right for the Hurricanes not matter what people feel.

If a guy that "lost 10-30 million" dollars on the Hurricanes this year wants to find another way to relieve some of the burden on him, then he has that right. As long as we continue to ice successful close to the cap teams, I will not question his business decisions.

if I was a betting man, he probably lost close to 20-30 million on the team this year. I put it in quotes because he losses can be used a tax breaks on other income.

That seems like an awesome argument for why the “money spending fan base” should have as much loyalty to Dundon as he has to us. I’m not sure that’s actually what’s best for this franchise.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Stop.



Says who? You don’t know and neither do I. All we know is we are talking about the budget scale of a minor league hockey team.



That seems like an awesome argument for why the “money spending fan base” should have as much loyalty to Dundon as he has to us. I’m not sure that’s actually what’s best for this franchise.

The budget of the minor league is important. Its a bunch of money that anyone could ask TD to assist them with. I can’t imagine Charlotte’s operating costs are low due to the amount of travel. They aren’t filled to the max with coporate sponsorships or attendance. 2013, the Vancouver affiliate was running at a negative 1.5 million. I would bet Charlotte runs in the negative and may be looking for some assistance in their operating budget and with the number of players Carolina fully pays for. Chicago by all accounts does very well. Maybe ae wont get the type of control we want but we may not have to pay for 20 of the 28 players like we did in Charlotte at 80-85k a pop. Our prospect pool in the A is small next season. It could grow by about 8-10 after European and Juniors’ seasons are over.

again not even considering affiliation money, the change is affecting hundreds of thousands of dollars. Not the few thousand you tried to lay out there to help your point.

paying fans don’t need to be loyal. Any business sacrifices a few thousand to make more or spend 10x less.

 

[tarheelhockey]

paying fans don’t need to be loyal.

Pretty sure the tag line wasn’t “paying fans don’t need to be loyal” when the team missed the playoffs for a decade straight.

If that’s true, what’s the value proposition in this whole racket?

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Pretty sure the tag line wasn’t “paying fans don’t need to be loyal” when the team missed the playoffs for a decade straight.

If that’s true, what’s the value proposition in this whole racket?

You are missing the whole point of the argument to bring up some side argument. Cool.

 

[tarheelhockey]

You are missing the whole point of the argument to bring up some side argument. Cool.

I guess?

If the value proposition of spending money on this franchise is “Billionaire profits matter”, then I guess that’s a thing.

I recall a LOT of talk over the years about how this is a big family and how this organization brings the Carolinas together. That was... what exactly? A trick?

Either this team means something or it doesn’t. It’s either a real community or it’s not. If it really doesn’t and this is all bullshit meant to line Dundon’s pockets, why are we here?

 

[hblueridgegal]

Keep diluting the product and all it will take is a downturn to see the sentiment and loyalty change. Intentional or not, they seem to be chipping away at the enthusiasm/mirage that they have worked so hard to build. Check out FB to see how folks are already feeling after the playoffs... some are ready and willing to trade away Pesce, TT, Slavin or Dougie for a change in results already. Who knows how long the honeymoon period will last? And if all the other intangibles are gone that make being a fan worth the money and time in our market, you're back to 12k in attendance.

There seems to be some chatter out that, even pre-Covid, all of the penny pinching is taking its toll internally including with the coaching. If that is true, how is that best for the organization if players and other personnel lose their desire to work for us or do just enough to keep their jobs until they can get another or be traded?

 

[tarheelhockey]

And if all the other intangibles are gone that make being a fan worth the money and time in our market, you're back to 12k in attendance.

I’d argue it’ll be a lot lower even than that, if the prelude to the downturn is a clear message to the fans of “this organization has zero loyalty to you and will sell you out at the drop of a hat”.

An awful lot of those 12K were in the building for no reason other than pure loyalty. It certainly didn’t make financial sense for about 5 of those years.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Man the sky is falling shenanigans when TD does something you don’t like is pretty bad.

The guy has all the skin in the game but we are going to complain how he spends his money. TD doesn’t have loyalty to the very small amount of fans in Charlotte.

This isn’t a loyalty, community, or family entity. Its a losing money, entertainment business. Yes its a business that is supposed to make money. Yes the owner should make decisions to get there.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The guy has all the skin in the game

He certainly has the most skin in the game in terms of dollars, but the statement above is not true. There are people in Charlotte who have 23 years of their lives and a lot of money invested in this team.

More to the point, there are a lot of people in Charlotte who will invest future time and money if they aren’t cut out of the picture.

This isn’t a loyalty, community, or family entity.

As long as taxpayers are footing the arena bill, it definitely is a community entity.

And the Hurricanes themselves have been pushing “Pride Passion Community” for a long time, so there’s a taste of dishonesty in their branding just now.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

He certainly has the most skin in the game in terms of dollars, but the statement above is not true. There are people in Charlotte who have 23 years of their lives and a lot of money invested in this team.

More to the point, there are a lot of people in Charlotte who will invest future time and money if they aren’t cut out of the picture.



As long as taxpayers are footing the arena bill, it definitely is a community entity.

And the Hurricanes themselves have been pushing “Pride Passion Community” for a long time, so there’s a taste of dishonesty in their branding just now.

Just because it isn’t true now doesn’t mean it wasn’t true then or even their intent.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Just because it isn’t true now doesn’t mean it wasn’t true then or even their intent.

The thing is, cross-branding to include Charlotte has increased rather than decreased with time. Everything from UNC-Charlotte hats and alumni games, to Kuechly sounding/almost breaking the siren, to an annual Cool Bars night uptown, to One Carolinas branding through FOX, to Hornets Night.

Their affiliation and co-branding with the Checkers was the centerpiece of that effort. Take that piece away, and none of the rest makes any sense. If anything it’s almost a mockery to have any of the other stuff if the fans in Charlotte aren’t even Canes fans anymore.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Remember when we didn't have our AHL affiliate in Charlotte and the world still spun on? Pepperidge Farms remembers.

 

[Vagrant]

as always, tangential, but it's interesting to me how the cool thing to do as an owner of a sports franchise was to sit as high up in the stadium as would allow and embrace the financial negligence of the idiot you hired because other idiots had hired him previously. that's the upset of the turnip truck that was what happened here in carolina that created such national chop. dundon comes in and there's just a bunch of dudes hanging out being former hurricanes together in the front office and shooting the shit around a water cooler. if you've ever seen the brutal efficiency in which those circus tent car dealerships operate, there is precious little sentimentality to go around. what those guys were doing around here was taking the franchise up on unofficial retirement clauses for former stars that couldn't find their financial feet so well outside the game or just flat out needed a place to crash between jobs. one can understand why the dissolution of those informal ambassador roles created such animosity among the hockey media. some of them have crashed on that couch before as o-dog piss stained as it might be.

all of that to say that if there's a reason the relationship went sour it's probably because dundon spotted some oversights he didn't like or some deficiencies that he couldn't personally address. the frustration with dundon will eventually be that he's going to break your heart. first he came for the kaitons and i did not speak out because i was not a kaiton type shit from top to bottom. but as we are finding out in real time, our attention spans are dangerously short so broken hearts only last two weeks and then john forslund is that guy who works nbc games and boy would you look at the heart on that mike maniscalco he sure is trying isn't he?

 

[emptyNedder]

This isn’t a loyalty, community, or family entity. Its a losing money, entertainment business. Yes its a business that is supposed to make money. Yes the owner should make decisions to get there.

The business decisions seem to follow the playback of corporate raiders. Making/losing money isn't the focus—selling for the highest price is the focus.

 

[bleedgreen]

Remember when we didn't have our AHL affiliate in Charlotte and the world still spun on? Pepperidge Farms remembers.

As does the north.

 

[Chrispy]

Remember when we didn't have our AHL affiliate in Charlotte and the world still spun on? Pepperidge Farms remembers.

You mean the days of a remote minor league team for call ups that had to bus the team from game to game? What was wrong with that?

Don't get me wrong, Chicago is a step up from the River Rat days. But it's a step back from Charlotte, and even purchasing a different AHL team to put in Greensboro long term would be a lateral move at best.