AHL Affiliate Thread - Send them the Wolves

[CanesFanBudMan]

Guess we should be used to the penny pinching and being nickel and dimed by now...remember when they wouldn't even call up a Checker when we needed one this past season...and we blew our momentum a few times?

That penny pinching makes sense seeing as we have carryover bonus overages

 

[A Star is Burns]

I posted this in the last iteration of this thread. It's certainly a mixed bag. I think it's fair to say the Blues weren't crippled by it too much and got some talent that helped them win a Cup.

I wonder how much it really hurts a franchise to pair with the Wolves. I know they have their priorities, and I'd much rather be in full control of that, but I wonder if it's that bad.

The Thrashers were trash for other and obvious reasons.

The Canucks made the playoffs both years affiliated with them and in 1 of the 2 next seasons. They then hit a skid of not making the playoffs, but was that the development of the prospects from up to 3 years previous by then, who knows. Not a huge list of guys that went onto impact careers other than Lack, Tanev, Antoine Roussel, and Zack Kassian. Granted, I see a fair number of young players on those teams that were played a fair amount. They may have been as bad at drafting as developing. Hard to say. We certainly had stretches in Charlotte of playing young guys and lists of graduates no better than that.

Looks like the Blues made the playoffs during their entire affiliation and since leaving and won a Cup within a couple of years. At various points I see guys like Dunn, Barbashev, Blais, Edmundson, Parayko (super briefly), Jake Allen and Binnington that played a part in their success spent development time in Chicago.

It'll be hard to say what the impact on Vegas is, because they obviously are at a disadvantage with their prospect situation. I do see several guys that have moved up to Vegas during these years though.

Of course, this is still not to say I want it. I'm just throwing crap out there while I'm bored.​

 

[Svechhammer]

See my reply to @CanesFanBudMan above... it's pretty optimistic to think the Wolves are going to change their entire organizational culture when they've already given us a monetary payoff to make this arrangement happen.

Can they fire the coaches?

No?

Then I don't think this is going to be a problem at all. Hell, the fact they are willing to pay to get our business shows they are already changing their culture.

 

[tarheelhockey]

while we dont know every detail and you can continue to shoot holes in all the details we dont know, it seems like the agreement is different. Our coaches will be the coach. We have more control of ice time and development than the previous affiliates of Chicago. We have some serious prospects coming through Chicago over the next 3 years. Maybe they were cool with giving up control if we agreed at the amount of veterans and with the knowledge that how many future NHLers will be coming through there. Bean (maybe), Suzuki, Cotton, Bokk, Sellgren, etc, etc, etc. A lot of marketing opportunity for Chicago.

Then one of these narratives has to give:

#1 - We will be able to sign more high quality veterans and stash them in Chicago
#2 - Our prospects will be getting top-line opportunities and development will be the priority

Both of these won't be true. And only #1 is consistent with the organizational philosophy of the Chicago Wolves.

 

[HisIceness]

I think a lot of people are seriously overthinking this

Perhaps, but for fans like myself who live in Charlotte and want to see the development of future Hurricanes, goodwill between the two markets from a Hockey standpoint, and frankly just want to see the damn game grow here and throughout the state, especially at a time when the Canes are on the up and up and the Panthers/Hornets either suck or are a huge question mark, well it's a sad day and a huge step in the wrong direction.

That's fine you don't care where the affiliate is, but plenty of people do.

 

[hblueridgegal]

That penny pinching makes sense seeing as we have carryover bonus overages

And maybe we could have been a round robin team if we had staffed appropriately.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Then one of these narratives has to give:

#1 - We will be able to sign more high quality veterans and stash them in Chicago
#2 - Our prospects will be getting top-line opportunities and development will be the priority

Both of these won't be true. And only #1 is consistent with the organizational philosophy of the Chicago Wolves.

not necessarily.

even in Charlotte our 3-6 AHL veterans were first line players. Did we every assume the prospects didnt get enough ice time? The veterans still played a bunch of minutes if they gave up the first line to prospects.

TBH having more veterans is better for the team. You arent asking prospects to play hard minutes against other veterans, hurting their development. You arent asking them to forgo their development to try to win, because even prospects hate losing (who wants to play on a losing team). You can ask prospects to focus on certain parts of the game during the season and allow the veterans to play all aspects, helping their development.

Its not about whether the prospects are getting 20 minutes to 13 minutes. What are they being asked to do in those minutes, that is what is important for their development.

 

[Svechhammer]

Perhaps, but for fans like myself who live in Charlotte and want to see the development of future Hurricanes, goodwill between the two markets from a Hockey standpoint, and frankly just want to see the damn game grow here and throughout the state, especially at a time when the Canes are on the up and up and the Panthers/Hornets either suck or are a huge question mark, well it's a sad day and a huge step in the wrong direction.

That's fine you don't care where the affiliate is, but plenty of people do.

Those "Plenty" of people aren't going to move the financial needle of the organization as a whole.

If we lose out on Checkers fans who will take their fandom to Florida rather than the Canes, that sucks, but its a minor blip in the big picture. Charlotte isn't ever going to be a major financial driver for this organization, and scheming organizational agreements to try and keep Charlotte isn't going to be a great business decision, especially if someone else is offering us a better financial compensation than what we have in Charlotte.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

That penny pinching makes sense seeing as we have carryover bonus overages

im not seeing the correlation there.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Can they fire the coaches?

No?

Then I don't think this is going to be a problem at all. Hell, the fact they are willing to pay to get our business shows they are already changing their culture.

Their being willing to cost-share isn't a culture change, it's an AHL organization running short of options for an affiliate in mid-September, and an NHL owner squeezing money from them in order to strike a deal.

I'll believe the Wolves will actually put veterans behind rookies when I see it. They've been around for 26 years and have always been known as the team that operates by scoreboard results regardless of development.

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

im not seeing the correlation there.

You don’t see the point in saving cap space when you are right up on the cap?

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

You don’t see the point in saving cap space when you are right up on the cap?

i dont see it as a penny pinching move, no. There isnt money involved. The money is already spent.

 

[WreckingCrew]

You don’t see the point in saving cap space when you are right up on the cap?

None of those players are going to affect the cap unless they're on the Canes roster...

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Their being willing to cost-share isn't a culture change, it's an AHL organization running short of options for an affiliate in mid-September, and an NHL owner squeezing money from them in order to strike a deal.

I'll believe the Wolves will actually put veterans behind rookies when I see it. They've been around for 26 years and have always been known as the team that operates by scoreboard results regardless of development.

I haven’t been following it that closely but this is my initial take as well. “Wait, we’re going to the team that’s notorious for playing dead end 29-year-old veterans over the guys we want to develop, and we’re going to them because they’ll invest with us in doing just that?”

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

i dont see it as a penny pinching move, no. There isnt money involved. The money is already spent.

Sorry that was sarcasm on my end to make a point

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Sorry that was sarcasm on my end to make a point

okay. my bad. Without the shushing face, /s, or other sarcasm warning, it is hard to pick up sometimes.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

What am I missing, according to hockeydb, this is their 5th team in 20 years as an AHL affiliate?

Chicago Wolves Parent Team affiliate history at hockeydb.com

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Anyone who has ever flown back and forth to Chicago knows that it takes a hell of a lot longer than 2 hours to get from one doorstep to the other. You're excluding the time driving to the airport, checking luggage, going through security, boarding the plane, sitting on the tarmac, deboarding the plane, getting luggage, getting to a taxi, and driving from the airport.

And the 21% chance of a lengthy delay or cancellation at O'Hare.

Delta and Southwest used to have a bunch of non stops. Now, it looks like it’s only SW and it’s down to one early in the AM and one at 530pm.
It’s not as convenient as it used to be. Don’t kid yourself (not *you*)....Charlotte is way closer.

 

[HisIceness]

Those "Plenty" of people aren't going to move the financial needle of the organization as a whole.

If we lose out on Checkers fans who will take their fandom to Florida rather than the Canes, that sucks, but its a minor blip in the big picture. Charlotte isn't ever going to be a major financial driver for this organization, and scheming organizational agreements to try and keep Charlotte isn't going to be a great business decision, especially if someone else is offering us a better financial compensation than what we have in Charlotte.

How exactly is this is a better business decision? They're saving money on basically two road trips but now they're going to have to spend more on flights out to the West Coast since they are changing conferences. And as I said before, Charlotte has daily flights to Raleigh and vice-versa, the prospects weren't driving or taking a bus to Raleigh, unless they wanted to.

They're also going into a situation where the team they're partnering up with doesn't have the best reputation for player development and one in which most fans tend to express rejoice in leaving rather than joining. This is JMO, but I thought the Checkers did a great job finding a good balance between letting guys like Necas and Geekie develop and "marinate" while letting the older AHL vets mentor the younger guys. We all saw what happened last year when the Checkers won the Calder, even guys like Fleury who I was beginning to give up on benefitted from playing in Charlotte last season. Will that continue in Chicago? Maybe they won't be as bad as people say but I'm not exactly ready to give them the benefit of the doubt here.

And finally, the Hurricanes absolutely should be doing more to market themselves throughout this market and frankly throughout the damn state. Taking the AHL affiliate in the largest city does the opposite of that. This move feels like all those times the Canes passed on playing preseason games in Charlotte for "home" games in towns like Quebec City (the same Quebec City that swore up and down that they were getting our team because of some dumb bloggers tracking flights), or Halifax. Shouldn't the Canes be trying to make more long-term money and success by building a brand in their own backyard rather than taking the cash-now option of an unknown future w/ Chicago, one that will likely end in divorce because Dundon and the Wolves management are at odds w/ each other?

You can agree to disagree or whatever, but to me I see no benefit from this at all. There's way more risk here than reward. In the end, it may not just be the Charlotte-based fans who are the losers, it very well could be guys like Ryan Suzuki who end up paying the price here.

 

[tarheelhockey]

not necessarily.

even in Charlotte our 3-6 AHL veterans were first line players. Did we every assume the prospects didnt get enough ice time? The veterans still played a bunch of minutes if they gave up the first line to prospects.

TBH having more veterans is better for the team. You arent asking prospects to play hard minutes against other veterans, hurting their development. You arent asking them to forgo their development to try to win, because even prospects hate losing (who wants to play on a losing team). You can ask prospects to focus on certain parts of the game during the season and allow the veterans to play all aspects, helping their development.

Its not about whether the prospects are getting 20 minutes to 13 minutes. What are they being asked to do in those minutes, that is what is important for their development.

Checkers consistently gave our top prospects high ice time. Specific example, Gauthier was playing on the first line until we traded him. That was good for us, because ice time is THE biggest correlator with player development.

If the idea here is that we sign more veterans and stick them on the top line, that means Gauthier is no longer on the top line. What happens when we go to trade him? The other GM wants to know why he should give more than future considerations for a guy who wasn't even producing at the AHL level. Replicate this across a bunch of prospects and it takes a toll.

Again, specific examples. Five years ago the Checkers were affiliated with us and the Wolves were affiliated with St. Louis. Here are the players who spent 60+ games with each team, and how many NHL games they played from that season forward:

Charlotte
Danny Biega - 10
Patrick Brown - 29
Trevor Carrick - 7
Phil di Giuseppe - 170
Kyle Hagel
Ben Holmstrom
Chad LaRose
Brock McGinn - 308
Justin Shugg - 3
Jared Staal
Brendan Woods - 7

Chicago
Rob Bordson
Mathieu Brodeur
Pat Cannone - 3
Jani Hakanpaa - 5
Shane Harper - 14
Phil McRae
Brent Regner - 7
Jeremy Welsh - 27
Yannick Veilleux

Charlotte was both a more stable and more productive environment for prospects. That is just one season, but the results will replicate long-term because that's who the Chicago Wolves are in the world of minor league hockey.

We want to talk about contributions to our deep playoff run? If Brock McGinn plays for Chicago in 2015, in all likelihood he is not on the ice to score that OT GWG. Choice of affiliate has a very real impact at the NHL level... these organizations are not all the same.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Checkers consistently gave our top prospects high ice time. Specific example, Gauthier was playing on the first line until we traded him. That was good for us, because ice time is THE biggest correlator with player development.

If the idea here is that we sign more veterans and stick them on the top line, that means Gauthier is no longer on the top line. What happens when we go to trade him? The other GM wants to know why he should give more than future considerations for a guy who wasn't even producing at the AHL level. Replicate this across a bunch of prospects and it takes a toll.

Again, specific examples. Five years ago the Checkers were affiliated with us and the Wolves were affiliated with St. Louis. Here are the players who spent 60+ games with each team:

Charlotte
Danny Biega - 10
Patrick Brown - 29
Trevor Carrick - 7
Phil di Giuseppe - 170
Kyle Hagel
Ben Holmstrom
Chad LaRose
Brock McGinn - 308
Justin Shugg - 3
Jared Staal
Brendan Woods - 7

Chicago
Rob Bordson
Mathieu Brodeur
Pat Cannone - 3
Jani Hakanpaa - 5
Shane Harper - 14
Phil McRae
Brent Regner - 7
Jeremy Welsh - 27
Yannick Veilleux

Charlotte was both a more stable and more productive environment for prospects. That is just one season, but the results will replicate long-term because that's who the Chicago Wolves are in the world of minor league hockey.

We want to talk about contributions to our deep playoff run? If Brock McGinn plays for Chicago in 2015, in all likelihood he is not on the ice to score that OT GWG. Choice of affiliate has a very real impact at the NHL level... these organizations are not all the same.

Gauthier was on the top line after year 2. He was on the 3rd line for a while.

You truly believe that the AHL affiliate would keep us from calling up a veteran so that they can win? Really that is an argument here? That isnt a thing. Apples and Oranges comparisons of organizational depth of us and them of 3 years ago.

 

[Chrispy]

Gauthier was on the top line after year 2. He was on the 3rd line for a while.

You truly believe that the AHL affiliate would keep us from calling up a veteran so that they can win? Really that is an argument here? That isnt a thing. Apples and Oranges comparisons of organizational depth of us and them of 3 years ago.

No, he means the STL players who were STL property did not develop into NHL players in Chicago. The implication is the lack of ice time in Chicago, given instead to career minor leaguers signed by the Wolves, stunted development.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

No, he means the STL players who were STL property did not develop into NHL players in Chicago. The implication is the lack of ice time in Chicago, given instead to career minor leaguers signed by the Wolves, stunted development.

Again. You are making apples and oranges comparisons. You cant compare an organizational depth for prospects or how many games they play in the league. Prospects never develop the same or even develop how they should. Would have it been Chicago's fault if any of our prospects who were rated high never made the league? no. they are busts. Its still a dumb argument.

To top it all off. We control the coaching staff. Which is unlike every other Chicago situation.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Gauthier was on the top line after year 2. He was on the 3rd line for a while.

I don't have exact lines from 2018 in front of me, but the stats from that year indicate that the top-6 wingers were Zykov, Foegele, Kuokkanen, and Saarela. The first three ended up being called up to the Canes before Gauthier and playing more games in Raleigh than him, so it makes sense they would be ahead of him in the lineup as prospects. Saarela of course was a sad bust, but he was a bust that the Hurricanes had invested in and certainly none of us would have disagreed with him being in the lineup over Goat back in 2018.

This is all a very different scenario than hiding a Gauthier level prospect behind independently-contracted AHL veterans, which is what Chicago has done since 1994.

You truly believe that the AHL affiliate would keep us from calling up a veteran so that they can win? Really that is an argument here? That isnt a thing.

I didn't say anything like that. I'm saying the idea that the Wolves are going to sign a bunch of veterans to contend for the Calder Cup and simultaneously make a priority of developing our prospects... that's pure fantasy. They're not going to do both of those things, they have a history of doing the first one exclusively, and doing the first one has already been specifically identified by Don Waddell as a "perk" of the affiliation.

 

[Negan4Coach]

This sucks and is dumb. I thought the whole reason for getting a team to affiliate with down in Charlotte was for ease of bringing guys up and down, have the farm squad near the flagpole and to help build the totality of the fanbase within NC. Boo.