AHL Affiliate Thread - Send them the Wolves

[Joe McGrath]

And for the record, 10 of the players On St. Louis’s cup winning team last year passed through Chicago and 6 of them were for more than 75 games.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I'm not saying Dundon is willing to burn through a lifetime's worth of relationship capital if that's what it takes to create black ink so he can flip the franchise for a profit, but it sure does seem like a lot of the "family" got greedy and overbearing as soon as he came into the picture.

You're not wrong, but that doesn't mean the way Karmanos was smart for running things that way either. It is interesting that some of this stuff seems like things Karmanos should have cared about as he ran out of money, but I guess he just didn't care about putting in that effort or rocking the "family" boat. I do think the pendulum for us is probably swinging too far in that cutting the fat direction even though I typically understand it. However, there probably were, and are around the NHL still, too many instances of good ole boys just sticking around cause that's the way things have always been run. But I'm still going to be pretty happy as long as they find ways to keep the good times on the ice rolling.

 

[A Star is Burns]

And for the record, 10 of the players On St. Louis’s cup winning team last year passed through Chicago and 6 of them were for more than 75 games.

Yup, I mentioned this before as well. I hope we fail this hard. This seems like a much more complete picture than comparing one year and throwing Brock McGinn out there.

St. Louis had Dunn (74 games), Barbashev (131 games), Blais (75 games), Edmundson (100 games), Parayko (17 games, but I'm sure many consider Slavin's 14 games and Pesce's 7 games a Charlotte success story), Jake Allen (52 games) and Binnington (119 games). A handful of others with appearances as you mentioned. Heck, I think Berube even coached there at one point.

 

[Chrispy]

You're not wrong, but that doesn't mean the way Karmanos was smart for running things that way either. It is interesting that some of this stuff seems like things Karmanos should have cared about as he ran out of money, but I guess he just didn't care about putting in that effort or rocking the "family" boat. I do think the pendulum for us is probably swinging too far in that cutting the fat direction even though I typically understand it. However, there probably were, and are around the NHL still, too many instances of good ole boys just sticking around cause that's the way things have always been run. But I'm still going to be pretty happy as long as they find ways to keep the good times on the ice rolling.

Maybe this is one of those situations with Karmanos. OTOH, Kahn also bought into a minority share of the Hurricanes at the time of the relocation to Charlotte, so maybe it makes sense to have a better than average deal with a minority owner of the parent franchise.

Has Kahn been bought out by Dundon yet?

 

[spockBokk]

Not sure if I’ve seen this point made, but...

Since the Wolves are one of the more successful organizations in the AHlL, part of the reasoning for selecting them may have been to instill a “winning” culture amongst the prospects. The Checkers have also had their fair share of success, but it doesn’t seem to ever have been at the sustained level of the Wolves.

It still royally sucks, but at least I’ve been able to prepare myself for the inevitable since March. At least I got to experience the Calder Cup run last year firsthand, that will always be up there in the great hockey memories bank.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

It sounds to me like there "wasn't a deal to be made" with the Checkers in the same way there wasn't a deal to be made with Forslund.

That quote makes me believe it was the Checkers wanting a split, not Dundon/Waddell. Again, the reasons for that split aren’t clear at the moment (from what I’ve seen, at least).

Although I found this tweet from the Checkers’ account interesting as well:



Could they have wanted a split because we dished off pieces of the Calder Cup winning team?

 

[2Minutes4Surging]

I think we are all able to see this for what it is. Dundon is not "cheap," but he is a shrewd businessman. There was no deal to be made with the Chex because they were not willing to do things in a way to benefit Dundon. Same as with Forslund. It all comes down to the $$. He took his leverage and Waddell's connections over to Chicago, who had to choose between us and Florida. The writing had been on the wall for Charlotte for over a year. The Canes brass unloaded every vet AHL player from the Calder Cup season who had little or no value to the NHL team. Going down the list Roy, Sarella, Kuokanen, Poturalski, Jurco, Carrick, Brown, Didier, Renouf. All of the players we were footing the bill for that had ZERO NHL value were not re-signed. The others who were in their "sh*t or get off the pot" year were eventually traded to help out the big club while they still held any value. We are down to having real prospects who still hold value and cheap players to fill in. We didn't qualify any of our guys over the summer who were potential border-line 4th liners. I'll be shocked if we keep the McKeown, Gibbons, Pritchard, Smallman, Wood type players unless Chicago agrees to take on some of the financial burden. If the affiliate wants good AHL players who hold little to no NHL value, then they should foot the bill. Dundon has changed the game when it comes to the way our franchise operates and the hope is that others see it and follow suit. It's hard to justify the NHL team being in the red year after year, while the AHL owner is turning a profit off of your bad money. It's just another shock to the good old boys system of how things have always been done. I hate that we moved to Chicago, but maybe it is better as a young kid to be in a bigger city that has more hockey culture.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Yes, I think the org only sees value in keeping younger prospects they see as having a good chance at an NHL future. They will move guys as they age out for younger AHL players like Keane, or in Haula/Trocheck type moves on the NHL roster. They'll probably provide a vet or two to supplement that, and let Chicago foot the rest.

It might not be a bad strategy and fits in a bit with our free agency strategy. In FA, we don't get the guys that get paid, we wait them out until options are limited and strike. In the trade strategy, we will likely try to get guys that are locked in at lower RFA rates or contracts that were signed before guys blew up, like Haula or Trocheck.

It's no fun that losing Charlotte plays into this strategy, but it might just work.

 

[tarheelhockey]

You're not wrong, but that doesn't mean the way Karmanos was smart for running things that way either. It is interesting that some of this stuff seems like things Karmanos should have cared about as he ran out of money, but I guess he just didn't care about putting in that effort or rocking the "family" boat. I do think the pendulum for us is probably swinging too far in that cutting the fat direction even though I typically understand it. However, there probably were, and are around the NHL still, too many instances of good ole boys just sticking around cause that's the way things have always been run. But I'm still going to be pretty happy as long as they find ways to keep the good times on the ice rolling.

My impression of the organization under Karmanos/Rutherford is that the country club was a cost-cutting measure in its own right. I don't think anyone wants to return to that, because the lack of quality control made his financial struggles a self-perpetuating cycle. Dundon put an end to that because he is hands-on enough to recognize when people aren't delivering.

The issue that's cropping up around Dundon is that in a very short period we've had an abnormal number of "we tried to work something out, but he was just so demanding that couldn't possibly make the numbers work" type stories. It's one thing to have it happen a single time, but this is becoming a Groundhog Day conversation around here.

Everyone here understands that Dundon has a clear financial bottom-line, but this is a loyalty-based business. Throwing away a bunch of long-term relationships in a short period of time begins to raise some natural questions about overall values and intentions.

 

[hblueridgegal]

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Sounds like it's all about the benjamins to me.

Fumny that @MinJaBen liked a post about Benjamins

 

[HisIceness]

So neither side is going to take the blame. Someone is going to hear from me, right now I'm not sure who. Maybe both sides deserve a nasty email.

 

[hblueridgegal]

That's PR for you. It appears one side wants to take the high road and has fan sentiment on their side. Our state likes our teams. Also, the Canes history of acrimonious negotiations, downsizing, and putting folks out to pasture does create a certain POV and pattern.

I did see some comments that the Canes and the Wolves are made for each other re: organizational tactics and operations. Should make for an interesting ride.

 

[emptyNedder]

It's one thing to have it happen a single time, but this is becoming a Groundhog Day conversation around here.

So neither side is going to take the blame.

I will mention a few points again. There were NO rumors that Pesce wanted out in November 2018, yet Waddell shares that information in 2019; Waddell states that Dundon played a "big" role in getting the new practice facility when it was under development prior to the ownership change; Forslund said he wanted to remain—the official line was that he wanted to pursue options; now the COO of the Checkers is unaware of any disagreement.
I understand the need for limited information, I understand the need for propaganda sometime. What bothers me is being treated like I am not able to appreciate if the team had said: they were interested in Nylander and Pesce was discussed; the team will fully utilize the new facilities and continue to spend money to make improvements; that given the uncertainty of next season the team decided against renewing Forslund's contract; that Chicago saved the team money that could be used on the NHL roster.

While some of us don't like every decision, that is not nearly as troublesome as being treated like we can't spot unnecessary dishonesty.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I get it. It’s not always a good look. But before Dundon took over, since the cup win in 05/06 this team has made the playoffs once. Our attendance was pitiful, we were at the bottom end of salary spending, we were a constant target for relocation, we didn’t make meaningful deadline deals, we didn’t see playoff hockey for 9 years and were often out of it by Christmas.

I’m not saying I trust Dundon and I do recognize he’s not afraid to make moves that might piss off the fan base. I haven’t agreed with every move, but the past two years have been reinvigorating in terms of watching Canes hockey. Maybe it will crash and burn. Maybe he’ll bail. Maybe he’ll move the team. I have no doubt that he’s ruthless enough to do what’s best for him personally.

But I’m not going to overly fret about it until there is something to fret about.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

And what happens when we send a guy like Necas to the Wolves? Is he going to play ahead of those veterans?

Chicago famously refuses to participate in prospect development. There's a reason they're willing to cost-share to add veterans to their lineup. We have agreed to a situation where the Chad LaRoses are going to be pushing our 1st round draft picks into AHL depth roles.

Except that Warsofsky is still the coach. There's got to be some give and take there, and I'm guessing that Don thinks he has the relationship with the team to pull that off.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I think we are all able to see this for what it is. Dundon is not "cheap," but he is a shrewd businessman. There was no deal to be made with the Chex because they were not willing to do things in a way to benefit Dundon. Same as with Forslund. It all comes down to the $$. He took his leverage and Waddell's connections over to Chicago, who had to choose between us and Florida. The writing had been on the wall for Charlotte for over a year. The Canes brass unloaded every vet AHL player from the Calder Cup season who had little or no value to the NHL team. Going down the list Roy, Sarella, Kuokanen, Poturalski, Jurco, Carrick, Brown, Didier, Renouf. All of the players we were footing the bill for that had ZERO NHL value were not re-signed. The others who were in their "sh*t or get off the pot" year were eventually traded to help out the big club while they still held any value. We are down to having real prospects who still hold value and cheap players to fill in. We didn't qualify any of our guys over the summer who were potential border-line 4th liners. I'll be shocked if we keep the McKeown, Gibbons, Pritchard, Smallman, Wood type players unless Chicago agrees to take on some of the financial burden. If the affiliate wants good AHL players who hold little to no NHL value, then they should foot the bill. Dundon has changed the game when it comes to the way our franchise operates and the hope is that others see it and follow suit. It's hard to justify the NHL team being in the red year after year, while the AHL owner is turning a profit off of your bad money. It's just another shock to the good old boys system of how things have always been done. I hate that we moved to Chicago, but maybe it is better as a young kid to be in a bigger city that has more hockey culture.

This seems like a strong argument to me. "It's hard to justify the NHL team being in the red year after year, while the AHL owner is turning a profit off of your bad money" I think hits the nail on the head. We traded away Charlotte's favorite players because they were no longer valuable pieces to us, which was absolutely right for us, but clearly hurt the relationship. Seems like the Borg thinks they can hack the AHL model to be more efficient. That fits in precisely with what we know about how this team wants to operate. Will it actually work? Time will tell.

The more I think about it, the more it feels like how the relationship between the Durham Bulls and the Atlanta Braves went bad back in the day. The Braves owned every affiliate in their chain except for the Bulls, and the GM for the Bulls chafed at that relationship and felt that other teams got preferential treatment. (I know because I was there, heh.) The Bulls won the first half season in 1996 with Andruw Jones and Wes Helms and John Rocker, and those dudes were all gone in the second half because Atlanta needed them, and then a lot of other dudes that could have helped fill the gaps went up to the R-Braves. There's a lot of tension under the surface between the big club's needs and the affiliate's desires to win and keep a fanbase paying money to see their team.

My impression of the organization under Karmanos/Rutherford is that the country club was a cost-cutting measure in its own right. I don't think anyone wants to return to that, because the lack of quality control made his financial struggles a self-perpetuating cycle. Dundon put an end to that because he is hands-on enough to recognize when people aren't delivering.

The issue that's cropping up around Dundon is that in a very short period we've had an abnormal number of "we tried to work something out, but he was just so demanding that couldn't possibly make the numbers work" type stories. It's one thing to have it happen a single time, but this is becoming a Groundhog Day conversation around here.

Everyone here understands that Dundon has a clear financial bottom-line, but this is a loyalty-based business. Throwing away a bunch of long-term relationships in a short period of time begins to raise some natural questions about overall values and intentions.

It's a loyalty-based business? I thought it was a sport, and last I checked, sports are a winning-based business. That's why Tom Brady isn't retiring a Patriot. Good orgs win. Everything else comes in second place. I don't always like it, and sometimes I really REALLY don't like it, but let's not kid ourselves. In the words of Vince Lombardi, properly quoted, "winning isn't everything, but it's the only thing."

 

[emptyNedder]

but the past two years have been reinvigorating in terms of watching Canes hockey.

Were you really saying that after game 65 when the Canes had dropped 4 straight and were sitting outside the last playoff spot?

It took an OT win, Ned and Geekie (neither with any connection to the GMBC) to beat the Penguins, and some fortunate scheduling of Detroit before the pause for the Canes to make the playoffs. I acknowledge injuries were significant in 2020, the truth is the entire season didn't represent much progress.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Were you really saying that after game 65 when the Canes had dropped 4 straight and were sitting outside the last playoff spot?

It took an OT win, Ned and Geekie (neither with any connection to the GMBC) to beat the Penguins, and some fortunate scheduling of Detroit before the pause for the Canes to make the playoffs. I acknowledge injuries were significant in 2020, the truth is the entire season didn't represent much progress.

If you decide to base your assessments on 4 games, that’s great, but I think that’s kind of narrow. Canes were on pace for 98 points at the stoppage of play, correct? So we should place more importance on 4 games, when Pesce and Hamilton were injured?

seems like you are seeing what you want to see.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It's a loyalty-based business? I thought it was a sport, and last I checked, sports are a winning-based business. That's why Tom Brady isn't retiring a Patriot. Good orgs win. Everything else comes in second place. I don't always like it, and sometimes I really REALLY don't like it, but let's not kid ourselves. In the words of Vince Lombardi, properly quoted, "winning isn't everything, but it's the only thing."

As far as the fans are concerned, it is absolutely a loyalty based business. The entire sales pitch for commercialized sports, from college to minors to majors, is based on loyalty and a sense that the team is connected to a community. Take that away, and there’s not much reason to buy into the product. Loyalty-free sports looks more like Globetrotters vs Generals.

What makes this situation different than a lot of the other cold-blooded business moves, is that it involves a direct “we don’t need you” message to a portion of our fanbase. I realize that group isn’t overwhelmingly huge, and apparently plenty of folks are fine with tossing them overboard if it means we might get a couple of extra emergency callups to choose from. But there’s something disturbing about seeing the “one Carolinas” culture ripped away after a decade of building it up. It makes a statement about what the fans actually mean to this organization (namely, nothing beyond the cash they pay into it).

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

That quote makes me believe it was the Checkers wanting a split, not Dundon/Waddell. Again, the reasons for that split aren’t clear at the moment (from what I’ve seen, at least).

Why do Dundon/Waddell deserve the benefit of the doubt when in every other controversial split- Kaiton, Francis, Lindholm/Hanifin, Skinner, Forslund- they have portrayed it as "not our fault"?

The only time I haven't felt totally prevaricated toward is when they traded Faulk, and there they still claimed "He wouldn't sign!".

On topic: on the one hand, I think paying 700k for Patrick Brown and Brian Gibbons to skate >10 obscenely sheltered ES minutes and >2 adequate minutes of PK 10-15 times a year is dumb, especially for a small market team. I personally don't think much of those players, but I can see the alternative solution in getting the AHL team to comp their AHL time, even if that's rare and unheard of. At least Dundon wasn't exactly withholding this was going to be a journey of discovering new and exciting ways to skimp on a tax write off half a billion short investment professional sports team?

Otoh, I simply do not like burning the far and away best long term branding and advertising asset outside the triangle on a short term monetary windfall and more games from the Saku Menalainen's of the world. Don't like the vibes im getting from Dundon.

Otooh, if the plan is to let the ahl team acquire the lower line plug in # gritty vets while the draftvis used on boom/bust skill guys...thats a plan I can get behind. I kinda think longer term ahl development is overrated, the elite scorers of the ahl are dominated by journeymen tweeners because the second they realize you have nhl skills you get the call. In fact the only guy in the last decade I can think of who benefitted from ahl ice time he probably didn't deserve and went on to be an elite guy off the checkers is Justin faulk and aho(necas got mostly sheltered 3rd line time). 2 guys in a decade.

But I will miss going to ahl games to see the baby canes. Hope we're back in 3 years

 

[Navin R Slavin]

As far as the fans are concerned, it is absolutely a loyalty based business. The entire sales pitch for commercialized sports, from college to minors to majors, is based on loyalty and a sense that the team is connected to a community. Take that away, and there’s not much reason to buy into the product. Loyalty-free sports looks more like Globetrotters vs Generals.

What makes this situation different than a lot of the other cold-blooded business moves, is that it involves a direct “we don’t need you” message to a portion of our fanbase. I realize that group isn’t overwhelmingly huge, and apparently plenty of folks are fine with tossing them overboard if it means we might get a couple of extra emergency callups to choose from. But there’s something disturbing about seeing the “one Carolinas” culture ripped away after a decade of building it up. It makes a statement about what the fans actually mean to this organization (namely, nothing beyond the cash they pay into it).

To be clear: I don't like it either, and the recent moves have been a factor in not renewing my season tickets.

But ownership is making a bet that the Charlotte market isn't that important to the team's success, and I suspect they've got numbers to back that bet up, because that's how this team works.

If they keep winning, I'll keep watching. From my couch.

But they'd better keep winning.

 

[Canes]

To be clear: I don't like it either, and the recent moves have been a factor in not renewing my season tickets.

But ownership is making a bet that the Charlotte market isn't that important to the team's success, and I suspect they've got numbers to back that bet up, because that's how this team works.

If they keep winning, I'll keep watching. From my couch.

But they'd better keep winning.

The thing is, market is not important to an AHL team's success, very few AHL teams' success does. Maybe one less bad contract acquired or signed this season, and we could have maybe kept the team in Charlotte if they really wanted. There was a ready made pipeline between fans and players alike. Dundon probably suggested to Waddell to go out and save some money given the amount of dead weight cap we've added to the roster, this move does nothing but help.

 

[HisIceness]

In response to the post above , @Navin R Slavin's post

I'll put it this way, if the Canes win another Cup in the near future I will forgive them for this whether they were in the right or wrong (I doubt we will ever truly know, it will forever be a finger-pointing match). If they at least stay competitive, then maybe in time I'll forgive them but they'll need to win another Cup to truly make me forget this. If they start reverting back to the 2010-ish-18 Canes then I may just outright boycott them. I'm not willing to tolerate that shit again, especially if there's no prospects or playoff hockey to go watch locally. And frankly at this stage of my life if they start sucking again, then I'll find other things to do with my time/care about. I'm already caring less and less about other sports than Hockey, and I used to be a big fan of damn near everything. Part of getting older I guess but the other sports are just not as fun as they once were, Hockey at least has kept my interest.

That's the Canes winning a cup by the way, not the Wolves. Right now w/ the Wolves I only care that the prospects will develop properly, which at this moment, I'm not very confident in. The Wolves winning the Calder won't mean anything to me like the Checkers winning last years Calder, it especially won't mean shit if the prospects in our system don't benefit from it like they did in Charlotte.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

To be clear: I don't like it either, and the recent moves have been a factor in not renewing my season tickets.

But ownership is making a bet that the Charlotte market isn't that important to the team's success, and I suspect they've got numbers to back that bet up, because that's how this team works.

If they keep winning, I'll keep watching. From my couch.

But they'd better keep winning.

You kinda made the point tho ... all they’ve done is win since Dundon came, and you’re not renewing.