Player Discussion Adam Larsson (Hall talk will result in a thread ban)

Aerchon

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Jul 20, 2011
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I agree, but we should give it a shot and if he holds his own then it means that Bear and Bouch can develop properly and take their time. If it doesn't work out then we should go back to Klefbom as the ppqb with this setup.

Pulju-Lucic-Drai
Mcdavid-Klefbom

Gives Mcdavid 3 one time options (Klef/Pulju/Drai). Lucic to screen and tip in shots. Mcdavid isn't a shooting threat on the pp and in this setup he wouldn't have to be.

I believe our PP and systems in general have as much to do with cap management as it does winning.

JP will not be on our top pp until signed long term at a reasonable hit. Ditto Nurse.

Even Larsson falls into this category.

I think we should have at least one PP with 1 defensemen at each point. Both to give utility and opportunity for development/growth.

Utility where we have a lead and don't want give up shorties to an aggressive team.
 

Kolja

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Oct 30, 2011
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Prediction: Larsson will go beast-mode this season, just like during WC, and will countinue so until he retires.
 

Kolja

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Oct 30, 2011
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He was voted best defender of the tournament together with OEL by the international media.
 

bucks_oil

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Aug 25, 2005
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No that's GF. But shot attempts are a useful proxy for puck possession.

Not to jump into the middle of an argument, but this supposition has always baffled me. Based on my rudimentary understanding of this game... shot attempts are highly correlated with A) scoring if you are lucky/good, or B) needing to recover the puck... which is the OPPOSITE of possession.

The fact that my team has had more shot attempts does not equate to my team having "more possession" of the puck.

I'm being somewhat sarcastic here, but I stand by the point.
 
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guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
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Hopefully Larsson has a rebound year which helps Klefa have a rebound year.

Klefa/Larsson
Sekera (replacement)/Russell
Nurse/Benning
Gravel unless Bouchard forces his way on the team.

If both Klefbom and Larsson return to form and are able to shoulder most of the heavy lifting it will make a world of difference for the 2nd pairing and the success of this defence as a whole.
 

LaGu

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Jan 4, 2011
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He was voted best defender of the tournament together with OEL by the international media.
He should have been MVP for the whole thing, got robbed by Kane...

It's just the IIHF though. I also hope he keeps bring that form into the seasom, but playing D with OEL, Klingberg, Ekholm and Lindholm helped a bit (even though he was best of the bunch).
 

Fourier

Registered User
Dec 29, 2006
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Waterloo Ontario
Not to jump into the middle of an argument, but this supposition has always baffled me. Based on my rudimentary understanding of this game... shot attempts are highly correlated with A) scoring if you are lucky/good, or B) needing to recover the puck... which is the OPPOSITE of possession.

The fact that my team has had more shot attempts does not equate to my team having "more possession" of the puck.

I'm being somewhat sarcastic here, but I stand by the point.

The correlation comes from the fact that you cannot shoot unless you have possession and that once in possession of the puck the object is to score. But this too cannot happen without a shot attempt. In the end though it is as you suggest an imperfect measure.
 

Fourier

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Dec 29, 2006
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Waterloo Ontario
If both Klefbom and Larsson return to form and are able to shoulder most of the heavy lifting it will make a world of difference for the 2nd pairing and the success of this defence as a whole.
Even with the Sekera injury if these two can return to form it will be a huge boost to the team. Larsson played very well down the stretch last year. He looked much more like he did through most of 2016-2017. Earlier in the year it sure looked to me like his back was an issue. Tough to play his game if that is the case so let's hope he is healthy.
 

Zenos

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Oct 4, 2009
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I believe our PP and systems in general have as much to do with cap management as it does winning.

JP will not be on our top pp until signed long term at a reasonable hit. Ditto Nurse.

I'm not saying that your theory is wrong, but if true, it's a fairly short-sighted attitude from the coaching staff. You should be coaching to a) win games and b) develop your players properly. Getting the maximum output out of ELC / cheaper contracts is a good problem to have. Putting players and the team as a whole at a disadvantage is setting a really poor precedent.
 

guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
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Even with the Sekera injury if these two can return to form it will be a huge boost to the team. Larsson played very well down the stretch last year. He looked much more like he did through most of 2016-2017. Earlier in the year it sure looked to me like his back was an issue. Tough to play his game if that is the case so let's hope he is healthy.

Interesting observation regarding Larssons back...I wasnt aware that there was a potential problem there.
What lends you to think that his back was an issue...did his skating seem labored?
 

Little Fury

Registered User
Jun 21, 2006
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Interesting observation regarding Larssons back...I wasnt aware that there was a potential problem there.
What lends you to think that his back was an issue...did his skating seem labored?

He missed 8 games in November with back issues.
 

bucks_oil

Registered User
Aug 25, 2005
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The correlation comes from the fact that you cannot shoot unless you have possession and that once in possession of the puck the object is to score. But this too cannot happen without a shot attempt. In the end though it is as you suggest an imperfect measure.

I understand the (imperfect) logic completely. My point is the stat abuses the notion that all possession is equal and all shots are equal, or that these things balance out. It would have said that our mid-nineties dump and chase, crash the net, high shot volume and decent puck recovery teams were better "possession" teams than the great puck moving teams with relatively lower shot volume opponents we looked up at every year at the top of the standings.

I'm sure we've all played on, low talent teams that took every shot they could and jammed the front of the net... where their only true skill was being a collective group of puck-hounds. These were not "possession" teams, corsi be damned.

If people wanted to say the stat was a proxy for "puck recovery" ( =/= possession), I suppose I'd be happier.

Full disclosure: my bias comes from currently playing goal on a team that fires random shots from everywhere (check that... from the perimeter), with no traffic, and gives up 6 breakaways and 12 two-on-ones per game. They ROCK from a corsi perspective and are (all too often) the epitome of the strategy employed by an otherwise-overmatched team of hard-working puck recoverers.
 
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AM

Registered User
Nov 22, 2004
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Well I watched all of the games last year, and in my opinion, Klefbom had a horrble run in the first part of the year.

Especially on the power play.

One of my frineds I watch the games with is a huge Klefbom fanboy. And I see the potential there, however it didnt work out last year.
 

Fourier

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Dec 29, 2006
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Waterloo Ontario
Well I watched all of the games last year, and in my opinion, Klefbom had a horrble run in the first part of the year.

Especially on the power play.

One of my frineds I watch the games with is a huge Klefbom fanboy. And I see the potential there, however it didnt work out last year.
He had 22 bone chips in his shoulder.
 

Tobias Kahun

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Oct 3, 2017
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Bone chips didn't affect his legs...which usually skated him into terrible positions

At the start of the year, Klefbom's biggest mistakes came from bad pinches and reads
Playing in that much pain can have the same effect as fatigue.

I don't think it explains it all, but it could possibly be some of it.
 
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Fourier

Registered User
Dec 29, 2006
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Bone chips didn't affect his legs...which usually skated him into terrible positions

At the start of the year, Klefbom's biggest mistakes came from bad pinches and reads

What it does do is make you tentative and that leads to these sort of things. Klefbom has always made mistakes, but so does every young defenseman. But last year he was a very different player than he had been the year before.Hopefully the guy we see this year is the better version.
 

Aceboogie

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Aug 25, 2012
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Prediction: Larsson will go beast-mode this season, just like during WC, and will countinue so until he retires.

Copy and paste this post every offseason from now until 2025. Players dont really move up tiers after age 23. So what weve seen out of him the past years is what well continue to get

Larsson is a Right-Hand version of Smid ( I dont say this to devalue Larsson, I loved Smid)
 

Joey Moss

Registered User
Aug 29, 2008
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Copy and paste this post every offseason from now until 2025. Players dont really move up tiers after age 23. So what weve seen out of him the past years is what well continue to get

Larsson is a Right-Hand version of Smid ( I dont say this to devalue Larsson, I loved Smid)
What in the world.. :huh:
 

CantHaveTkachev

Legends
Nov 30, 2004
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Copy and paste this post every offseason from now until 2025. Players dont really move up tiers after age 23. So what weve seen out of him the past years is what well continue to get

Larsson is a Right-Hand version of Smid ( I dont say this to devalue Larsson, I loved Smid)
except worse offense and defense
 

Aceboogie

Registered User
Aug 25, 2012
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What in the world.. :huh:

Elite players show elite ability before age 23, top pairing D show top pairing ability before age 23. Basically if you are a middle pairing D at age 23 (ability wise, not because coach decisions or they are in a stacked D core), you will be a middle pairing D going forward. Development typically peaks at age 25. So Larsson would have to be the big outlier if he were to become a #1 D or even #2 D
 

A91

Oilers + Real Madrid
May 21, 2011
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Elite players show elite ability before age 23, top pairing D show top pairing ability before age 23. Basically if you are a middle pairing D at age 23 (ability wise, not because coach decisions or they are in a stacked D core), you will be a middle pairing D going forward. Development typically peaks at age 25. So Larsson would have to be the big outlier if he were to become a #1 D or even #2 D

Duncan Keith, Brent Burns, Mark Giordano all disagree. And that's just off the top of my head.
Even this year's Norris winner Vicyor Hedman wasn't elite before 23 iirc he took a while to develop.
 

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