Books: A Song of Ice and Fire *SPOILERS* Part XV

[Ainec]

I don't have any faith in GRRM finishing the book, he's a clown on twitter

 

[Garo]

First 50 episodes of pure gold turned to 23 episodes of pure ****.

Ok that's just not true

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken was in those first 50 episodes

 

[MadDevil]

Help us Obi Wan GRRM, you're our only hope.

Yes, because I'm sure the books will end much differently...

Although the road to getting there will hopefully be better? I have less faith every year that passes though. He's got even more of a mess to wrangle than the showrunners did.

 

[K Fleur]

We are never getting A Dream Of Spring. If Martin knew how to get to the end of this series we’d be there by now.

 

[Moncherry]

I didn't think the overall ending was that bad, considering where they had taken the story.

I think the Iron Throne being destroyed is a logical ending for the books, but in the sense that the concept of a unified Westeros becomes obsolete, not just the actual throne. When Tyrion proposed that they choose their own ruler, I thought Sansa's decision would make more sense for all of them, with the Seven Kingdoms becoming separate and independent once more. The Targaryen dynasty is officially dead and gone, and Westeros goes back to how it was before Aegon conquered them.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Yes, because I'm sure the books will end much differently...

Although the road to getting there will hopefully be better? I have less faith every year that passes though. He's got even more of a mess to wrangle than the showrunners did.

The original title for the final book was “A Time for Wolves”

A massive Stark victory was always in the cards.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I didn't think the overall ending was that bad, considering where they had taken the story.

I think the Iron Throne being destroyed is a logical ending for the books, but in the sense that the concept of a unified Westeros becomes obsolete, not just the actual throne. When Tyrion proposed that they choose their own ruler, I thought Sansa's decision would make more sense for all of them, with the Seven Kingdoms becoming separate and independent once more. The Targaryen dynasty is officially dead and gone, and Westeros goes back to how it was before Aegon conquered them.

I agree. I guess the overall message is one of anti-hereditary monarchy?

 

[Live in the Now]

I don't have any faith in GRRM finishing the book, he's a clown on twitter

He likes the world he built but I don't think he cares very much for his characters. I think he finds them boring after thinking about them for so long and that's why he's worked on other projects within that world he built. That's his prerogative of course. I would present the idea that when he introduced that massive amount of characters in Feast and Dance, it was because he was having a hard time writing the book without creating those new characters and not working on developing the original ones he no longer cared for.

 

[Emperoreddy]

He likes the world he built but I don't think he cares very much for his characters. I think he finds them boring after thinking about them for so long and that's why he's worked on other projects within that world he built. That's his prerogative of course. I would present the idea that when he introduced that massive amount of characters in Feast and Dance, it was because he was having a hard time writing the book without creating those new characters and not working on developing the original ones he no longer cared for.

The fact Bran’s chapters kept dropping made me think he really lose interest in the Others plot line.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

I mean, since we're looking at Westeros from the view of the power brokers, the head honchos, the big cheeses, and not the little guy, the generic sh!ts that we all are, who have zero power to affect the course of anything that will be anywhere near even the most biased history book- then having an omniscient dictator IS indeed a good ending, because we know he will make decisions utilizing the most information available through his everpresent spies with which can see into every generic shi!t's life at any and all waking moments.

It's really a fascinating, unintentional reversal from 1984. Bran will, indeed, be the best dictator- because he alone can invade the privacy of every man, woman, and child on Westeros. Then you add the Samwell, beta of all betas, suggested Democracy to the jeers of all the men present ('cause I don't recall Sansa laughing at Samwells' suggestion)...

This isn't to say that 1984 was right. I'm a millennial, and I'm told the second generation previous to mine grew up in utter fear of 1984 becoming a true actuality- so it's interesting the greatest pop cultural phenomenon of the aughts will end on such an infelicitous note, infelicitous to the pop cultural icon that came before it.

 

[Brodie]

Bran being king is for sure the endgame, it is logically consistent and

I think the North being independent was probably fanservice, it's not an internally consistent outcome as the books would have Dorne and the Iron Islands also secede.

 

[Brodie]

He did. Years ago he slandered Robert jordan for letting someone finish wheel of time after he died.

He proclaimed when his fat ASS has a heart attack nobody can play in his sandbox and nobody will get to know what happened.

I'm sadly not kidding. Robert jordan was the man and had one of the greatest series ever and made sure the author finishing his work after he died knew what to do. Grrm was good for 3 books then phoned it in for a paycheck and stopped trying years ago

You should really get help. You're unreasonably angry over this, the man owes you absolutely nothing. And, more to the point, there is nothing exceptional about the glacial pace of GRRM's writing in fantasy/sci fi terms. Look at Dune. Even Wheel of Time slowed from a two books a year pace to one every three years by the end. And both of those series had their author die before finishing.

If you do not like the pacing problems or the looming threat of the story never being finished, you should probably abandon genre fiction altogether.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I kind of buy the idea that Blood Raven legit orchestrated everything to lead to the outcome of Bran becoming king.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I kind of buy the idea that Blood Raven legit orchestrated everything to lead to the outcome of Bran becoming king.

It seems that way to me.

 

[Emperoreddy]

It seems that way to me.

Is he the Great Other and or the Lord of Light?

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Is he the Great Other and or the Lord of Light?

The books suggest they are champions of the Great Other. It's so convoluted though and was never explored on the show. Bran remains the biggest mystery from the show in my opinion.

 

[Kevin27NYI]

Yes, because I'm sure the books will end much differently...

Although the road to getting there will hopefully be better? I have less faith every year that passes though. He's got even more of a mess to wrangle than the showrunners did.

I agree, I think the end result will be very similar but the way to get there will be better.

I just don't know if he writes it though, too many characters he needs to finish up. The idea that Jon just died and how far they need to catch up just to get Dany to Westeros is insane. Think how far behind the Others plot is. It's daunting and I can't figure out how he will do it in two books, especially when it's POV and he dedicates only so many characters to a book.

 

[Make]

Another problem is the age of the central characters. Bran is still going to be a kid, something like 12-13 max(?) when he's supposedly crowned (and before that, does something that is going to make him even a credible option for the throne). Unless he goes through some magical maturing process because he's the Three Eyed Crow, it's going to be a tough sell imo.

 

[Blender]

Ignoring for a moment that I don't think the books will ever be completed, I'm unconvinced that the story will actually be better in the books. I expect the ending to be very similar, maybe a few character swaps for the outcomes but the same outcomes essentially, but a far more detailed and fleshed out journey to get there. The issue is that based on the last two books largely being a slog, I don't have high hopes that the more detailed journey will really be high quality compared to the rushed journey we got in the show.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Ignoring for a moment that I don't think the books will ever be completed, I'm unconvinced that the story will actually be better in the books. I expect the ending to be very similar, maybe a few character swaps for the outcomes but the same outcomes essentially, but a far more detailed and fleshed out journey to get there. The issue is that based on the last two books largely being a slog, I don't have high hopes that the more detailed journey will really be high quality compared to the rushed journey we got in the show.

I totally agree. I will be very surprised if they ending departs too much from the show. I am curious how they handle the Jon/Dany relationship in the book, especially with the presence of Aegon. I saw someone suggest that he and not Cersei becomes the subject of Dany's ire but the outcome is the same (Dany's sacks King's Landing and Jon kills her to prevent a reign of terror).

 

[Brodie]

I think everything involving Arya will be different and I strongly doubt Sansa is made queen of an independent north.

Otherwise, I think everything that happened from a strict plot perspective last night is what GRRM would write.

 

[Make]

It's a daunting task for GRRM to finish this. Watching the show struggle so much to bring it to a satisfying closure has kind of made me realize how complex the story has become. Feels like GRRM started with a very ambitious "total fantasy" concept that is just too difficult to finish. No wonder the original idea of a trilogy has basically doubled in lenght and we aren't even close to the finish line yet. So many (supposedly) important side stories going on that need some kind of closure.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

The coolest ending by far will be if the last book is never "finished" just like our lives are never "finished" at their end.

 

[RandV]

I totally agree. I will be very surprised if they ending departs too much from the show. I am curious how they handle the Jon/Dany relationship in the book, especially with the presence of Aegon. I saw someone suggest that he and not Cersei becomes the subject of Dany's ire but the outcome is the same (Dany's sacks King's Landing and Jon kills her to prevent a reign of terror).

Yes that was me, and I also added the idea to the pile that they Aegon would have the same effect of Cersei blowing up the great sept - clear the field of Tyrell's and sparrows, then in typically GRRM fashion die right at the end with victory at hand leaving a mad Cersei the only one left to hold Kings Landing while everyone else is fighting in the North.

 

[RandV]

Having just watched the finale, I have no real complaints on it specifically. Have some problems with how we got here, but for how the stage was set I was happy with the ending.

A couple other thoughts though, I feel like D&D's Jon knifing Dany scene was 'borrowed' from what GRRM has planned for Jamie and Cersei. This is a major point I just can't resolve between the two. In the show's finale Dany starts going off about wanting to conquer everyone, and that's fine it kind of fits her character here.

But in the books with it's much greater detail and complexity, in Dance she's been getting the lesson hammered home that she can't just do this through the first slaver city (was it Astapor?) where she took the unsullied, killed the masters, and left the city appointing two wise elders to rule. Who were promptly killed by a butcher, who took over as a tyrannical king, constantly petitioning Dany for aid through Dance as the city turned into a nightmarish shitshow of disease, famine, and eventual reconquest by the slavers.

Basically, unless I recall wrong I don't think book Dany ever uttered the words "I will break the wheel", and show Dany never learned the same lessons that would specifically deter her from thinking she could just go and conquer the shit out of the world and make everything better for it - which is why Jon killed her knowing how horrible that would be.