Books: A Song of Ice and Fire *SPOILERS* Part XV

[Frank the Tank]

All the Stark children are wargs in the books, right? Bran is the only greenseer

Except Sansa because Lady died before their bond could be developed.

 

[Blender]

This narrative that has developed in this thread that if you don't think Stannis is the best character, the best fit for king, and the true hero you are a "Stannis hater" is one of the funniest things I've read lately though.

 

[Acoustic]

This narrative that has developed in this thread that if you don't think Stannis is the best character, the best fit for king, and the true hero you are a "Stannis hater" is one of the funniest things I've read lately though.

And if you like Stannis you are a "Stannis the Mannis" bro.

 

[Blender]

And if you like Stannis you are a "Stannis the Mannis" bro.

Only if you think he has no character flaws, or worse think his flaws are actually virtues which is the opposite of what GRRM intended. There is a ton of middle ground for a nuanced discussion on Stannis and every other character that is possible without taking ridiculous, extreme positions.

 

[Blender]

As for Ygritte vs Dany, they spent several episodes spanning two different seasons before showing any romance. Here they go from separate monarchs to soon to bang couple in 5-6 episodes. This season has been lame. D and D can't write or think of how to write a story so they decide to cut the last two seasons to 13 episodes. I could write a better season in my sleep then these two ass clowns have shown us this year. The show is merely fanfic and fan service, not smart and heartfelt writing. Case in point opening scene of season 7.

As I said before, I think you are misremembering how much actual screen time Jon and Ygritte had together before they were a couple. It really wasn't all that much, it was just spread out over a bunch of episodes as I listed for you. Jon and Dany have had more screen time together with still more to come, it has just been over much fewer episodes. Most of the Jon and Ygritte development comes after they have sex in the cave (i.e. the cave, before the climb, on top of the wall, marching towards Castle Black, etc.) If you only base the passage of time and events on how many episodes it takes, I can see how you would think it would be rushed, but if you base it on screen time it hasn't been at all.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Ygritte just wanted to get laid, and it was either Jon Snow or that 30 year old warg wildling, so she went with Jon. Him going down on her and their conversation afterward is the "start" of their relationship. It's solidified when they save each other whilist climbing the Wall, which is really a great scene, and the kiss is the first of their love.

Meanwhile Jon and Dany spent 5 episodes mildly irritated with one another, doing nothing to indicate that they should like each other beyond being attractive people in close proximity, then Dany saw his rock hard six-pack and decided she could love again. <3

 

[Blender]

Ygritte just wanted to get laid, and it was either Jon Snow or that 30 year old warg wildling, so she went with Jon. Him going down on her and their conversation afterward is the "start" of their relationship. It's solidified when they save each other whilist climbing the Wall, which is really a great scene, and the kiss is the first of their love.

Meanwhile Jon and Dany spent 5 episodes mildly irritated with one another, doing nothing to indicate that they should like each other beyond being attractive people in close proximity, then Dany saw his rock hard six-pack and decided she could love again. <3

You've missed some scenes if this is your actual take on things.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Can you support that without the phrase, "subtle shifts in body language"?

 

[Blender]

Can you support that without the phrase, "subtle shifts in body language"?

You can't just exclude body language from the argument, as there have been a lot of scenes where their facial expressions and body language have been very important to what they are actually thinking, along with the language they have used while communicating. I understand that the development of their feelings for each other, besides the obvious physical attraction they have, have been subtle because of the very formal communicating style Jon has kept the conversations to, but they are there and numerous. Sometimes in TV shows or movies you aren't going to get a verbal step by step explanation of what every character is thinking and you have to read their body language and actions to make the determination.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

You can't just exclude body language from the argument,

I'm not excluding it. I just want an example of these two people actually connecting, like real people would, rather than falling in love just 'cause.

I don't want Jon and Dany agreeing after three episodes of arguing and then their body language implies attraction. What I want is an actual connection. Like when Jon and Ygritte climbed the Wall, they fought for each other, they nearly died to save one another (meanwhile the jealous Wargling cut them loose ASAP). That kind of connection, one real people forge and can truly lead to romantic feelings.

Though I guess now that I think about it, romance has never been one of this series' strong suits.

 

[Blender]

I'm not excluding it. I just want an example of these two people actually connecting, like real people would, rather than falling in love just 'cause.

I don't want Jon and Dany agreeing after three episodes of arguing and then their body language implies attraction. What I want is an actual connection. Like when Jon and Ygritte climbed the Wall, they fought for each other, they nearly died to save one another (meanwhile the jealous Wargling cut them loose ASAP). That kind of connection.

- Jon is the only person Daenerys has ever met that has treated her as an equal. He doesn't put her on a pedestal like most men she has been around, and he doesn't talk down to her like others have. He treats her with respect and kindness even when she was trying to strong arm him with her "I am the King!" title card, or showing off her dragons.

- They both have a very similar vision for how they want the world to be, but more than that Daenerys has slowly realized Jon is the most selfless and honorable man she has ever met and she greatly admires him for it. Jon is everything Daenerys wants to be and this has slowly came out over their interactions peaking in episode 6. Jon sees these same virtues in Daenerys as well and realizes she wants what's best for the people.

- In episode 4 when Daenerys finds out about her defeats, she angrily says she is going to go burn down the Red Keep with her dragons. Tyrion doesn't change her mind, Jon does. Jon gives her a speech saying to "build a world that's different than the **** one they've always known, but if you use them to melt castles and burn cities, you aren't different, you're just more of the same." She looks a mix of devastated and inspired by what he said, that this guy just said everything she wants to try and be, but has never really known how to do it while he lives it. Instead of attacking King's Landing as she suggested, she goes after the Lannister army and supply train in the field because of this speech.

- In episode 5 Daenerys is crushed when Jon says he is going north of the wall, and he can see on her face that she loves him and that he could be giving that up. She scrambles to try and come up with a reason for him not to go, but all she has is that she hasn't given him permission. In episode 6 after he has left, she talks to Tyrion about him in a tone and manner that says she is upset that he left her. Tyrion has figured out she loves him and knows that Jon loves her, but Daenerys won't admit it.

- In episode 6 Daenerys goes running off Dragonstone because Jon needs help. The look they give each other when she arrives in the north is pretty clear of what they think of each other. Daenerys saves all of their lives at risk of her own and loses a dragon in the process. Jon risks in own life just to buy time to get everyone out of there. They are proving by their actions right in front of each other who they truly are as people, as I discussed in point 2.

- On the boat in episode 6, Daenerys' reaction to Jon calling her "my queen" was perhaps the most humble and vulnerable we have ever seen her, and her response of "I hope I deserve it" was great. Here is probably the most honorable and selfless person she has ever met, and he is telling her that he trusts and will follow her. She's not sure she even deserves that level of trust from Jon, who she clearly thinks is better than her, but she's incredibly touched by it. Daenerys is also alluding to a marriage alliance with her children comment, and the way they are talking and looking at each other it's clear they are in love.

They didn't just all in love "because", the build up has been there since they met in episode 2.

EDIT: I forgot about the scene in episode 3 as well where Daenerys tells Jon he can mine the dragonglass. Daenerys makes that comment to Jon about "everyone enjoys what they are good at" and Jon replies "I don't". She's pretty taken aback by that response and it is supposed to remind the audience and her of Rhaegar.

 

[Miamipuck]

This narrative that has developed in this thread that if you don't think Stannis is the best character, the best fit for king, and the true hero you are a "Stannis hater" is one of the funniest things I've read lately though.

If you don't want some hot sweaty Stannis love, you're a hater.

 

[Miamipuck]

- Jon is the only person Daenerys has ever met that has treated her as an equal. He doesn't put her on a pedestal like most men she has been around, and he doesn't talk down to her like others have. He treats her with respect and kindness even when she was trying to strong arm him with her "I am the King!" title card, or showing off her dragons.

- They both have a very similar vision for how they want the world to be, but more than that Daenerys has slowly realized Jon is the most selfless and honorable man she has ever met and she greatly admires him for it. Jon is everything Daenerys wants to be and this has slowly came out over their interactions peaking in episode 6. Jon sees these same virtues in Daenerys as well and realizes she wants what's best for the people.

- In episode 4 when Daenerys finds out about her defeats, she angrily says she is going to go burn down the Red Keep with her dragons. Tyrion doesn't change her mind, Jon does. Jon gives her a speech saying to "build a world that's different than the **** one they've always known, but if you use them to melt castles and burn cities, you aren't different, you're just more of the same." She looks a mix of devastated and inspired by what he said, that this guy just said everything she wants to try and be, but has never really known how to do it while he lives it. Instead of attacking King's Landing as she suggested, she goes after the Lannister army and supply train in the field because of this speech.

- In episode 5 Daenerys is crushed when Jon says he is going north of the wall, and he can see on her face that she loves him and that he could be giving that up. She scrambles to try and come up with a reason for him not to go, but all she has is that she hasn't given him permission. In episode 6 after he has left, she talks to Tyrion about him in a tone and manner that says she is upset that he left her. Tyrion has figured out she loves him and knows that Jon loves her, but Daenerys won't admit it.

- In episode 6 Daenerys goes running off Dragonstone because Jon needs help. The look they give each other when she arrives in the north is pretty clear of what they think of each other. Daenerys saves all of their lives at risk of her own and loses a dragon in the process. Jon risks in own life just to buy time to get everyone out of there. They are proving by their actions right in front of each other who they truly are as people, as I discussed in point 2.

- On the boat in episode 6, Daenerys' reaction to Jon calling her "my queen" was perhaps the most humble and vulnerable we have ever seen her, and her response of "I hope I deserve it" was great. Here is probably the most honorable and selfless person she has ever met, and he is telling her that he trusts and will follow her. She's not sure she even deserves that level of trust from Jon, who she clearly thinks is better than her, but she's incredibly touched by it. Daenerys is also alluding to a marriage alliance with her children comment, and the way they are talking and looking at each other it's clear they are in love.

They didn't just all in love "because", the build up has been there since they met in episode 2.

EDIT: I forgot about the scene in episode 3 as well where Daenerys tells Jon he can mine the dragonglass. Daenerys makes that comment to Jon about "everyone enjoys what they are good at" and Jon replies "I don't". She's pretty taken aback by that response and it is supposed to remind the audience and her of Rhaegar.

You put a lot of effort into making people that dislike the show change their mind, especially people that think the show is an abortion, like the poster that brought up Westeros.org, a giant show hating circle jerk. He must love it there.

(you forgot Jon petting Drogon moment with Dany looking down)

Anyway, D&D aren't as good writers as GRRM, but they're TV/movie guys, they don't have certain luxuries that GRRM has, like time and detail. They're 2 totally different mediums. That's why scenes and story worked better Seasons 1-4. GRRM and D&D were able work off of one another and fix the problems of a story that is beyond difficult to adapt.

Now they're only working off of a rough outline where they have 3-4 months to fill in all the details of a story that isn't theirs. I think they have made more good choices than bad but the bad choices are evident. That said the production of this show is more immense than most movies. So I am sure some of their poor decisions were because of situations beyond their control.

Anyway, my general point is expecting D&D to make a better story than the person that created it in the first place is a huge stretch. Like that hardly ever happens. There are some examples but they're few and far between.

The show is still better than 95% of the tv shows currently being aired. I think we're in a bigtime lull as far as peak tv is concerned. That isn't absolving them of some of the problems they created. It's just enjoying the show for what it is and enjoying the books for what they are.

 

[Blender]

You put a lot of effort into making people that dislike the show change their mind, especially people that think the show is an abortion, like the poster that brought up Westeros.org, a giant show hating circle jerk. He must love it there.

(you forgot Jon petting Drogon moment with Dany looking down)

Anyway, D&D aren't as good writers as GRRM, but they're TV/movie guys, they don't have certain luxuries that GRRM has, like time and detail. They're 2 totally different mediums. That's why scenes and story worked better Seasons 1-4. GRRM and D&D were able work off of one another and fix the problems of a story that is beyond difficult to adapt.

Now they're only working off of a rough outline where they have 3-4 months to fill in all the details of a story that isn't theirs. I think they have made more good choices than bad but the bad choices are evident. That said the production of this show is more immense than most movies. So I am sure some of their poor decisions were because of situations beyond their control.

Anyway, my general point is expecting D&D to make a better story than the person that created it in the first place is a huge stretch. Like that hardly ever happens. There are some examples but they're few and far between.

The show is still better than 95% of the tv shows currently being aired. I think we're in a bigtime lull as far as peak tv is concerned. That isn't absolving them of some of the problems they created. It's just enjoying the show for what it is and enjoying the books for what they are.

I did forget the dragon petting moment, and that one had a lot of meaning.

The effort really isn't for the people who just hate on the show every week though, it's for other people that may read their comments.

 

[Miamipuck]

I did forget the dragon petting moment, and that one had a lot of meaning.

The effort really isn't for the people who just hate on the show every week though, it's for other people that may read their comments.

RE: Jon/Dany

It's weird, my favorite tv critic is Alan Sepinwall. He had most of the same problems I had with the episode 6.

That said, he thinks that Jon and Dany had no chemistry and I thought the opposite. Of all things this season to complain about, that isn't one. I think they have a lot of chemistry and have both been relatively good together to put it mildly. So I guess Jon/Dany is different strokes, Finlandia is just like Sepinwall in that respect.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I've never wanted this ship, but I think the chemistry is there.

 

[Kitten Mittons]

Definitely there; that was pretty obvious in the show from the start. There's also ton of mutual respect for their characters, especially from Dany's side, which obviously adds to physical attraction.

Also, if you had abs like that, girls would be in love with you instantly too.

 

[TheAngryHank]

The bear was a scout checking weapons. Night king sent a WW and the same number of undead as a trap.Night king knew the plan he was checking numbers and weapons why when Jon killed the one WW they all died but one.Night King wanted a dragon.He can warg like Brann and its obvious.

 

[Emperoreddy]

http://deadline.com/2017/08/game-of...ylor-beyond-the-wall-season-7-hbo-1202152264/

Interview with the director Alan Taylor, and he mentions some stuff George said when he came to cost on set.

Basically GRRM started tossing spoilers around and said that whole point of the story was the convergence of Dany and Jon. This was back during season 1 so apparently they didn't realize yet how correct he was.

 

[chokei]

Not sure if I should ask this here or in the show thread. I can go to the other thread if wanted.

I've been wondering for quite some time now: How do book readers decide which elements from the show will be of significance for the books or be in the books at all?

I've read or heard multiple times now things like "it's bad but it will not be in the books, so calm down" or "not sure if this will have significance also in the books".

As far as I know Martin told the show makers the most important things till the end of the books. To me this means that the major events from the show will likely also appear in the books, even though the way to get there might differ.

But is there a reason to think that some things from S6 and S7 might not appear in the books at all or completely different? If so why and how, could anyone give an example?

 

[Siamese Dream]

Not sure if I should ask this here or in the show thread. I can go to the other thread if wanted.

I've been wondering for quite some time now: How do book readers decide which elements from the show will be of significance for the books or be in the books at all?

I've read or heard multiple times now things like "it's bad but it will not be in the books, so calm down" or "not sure if this will have significance also in the books".

As far as I know Martin told the show makers the most important things till the end of the books. To me this means that the major events from the show will likely also appear in the books, even though the way to get there might differ.

But is there a reason to think that some things from S6 and S7 might not appear in the books at all or completely different? If so why and how, could anyone give an example?

The best example is the atrocity that was Dorne. They cut out the major characters and made the Sand Snakes really really bad and annoying. In the books they will not murder and usurp Doran, he will play the key role as Dorne's leader in their quest for Targaryen restoration and revenge against the Lannisters. The books have a similar theme to the show at the start, Doran is patient and calculating and waiting for the right moment, while the girls are impulsive and want war/revenge immediately so they go behind his back. In the book he finds out and stops them and they eventually take his side, in the show they have the girls murder him because fans didn't like Dorne and they just wanted to rush that story along with getting him out of the way being the best way of doing that.

I'm not sure how different things will be but it seems that Gurm basically told them the ending and some key points, and they've been making it up as they go along trying to reach those objectives. Like if the NK does get an ice dragon in the books, you can bet your bottom dollar Gurm won't make Jon and the gang go on a really stupidly conceived suicide mission, he will go about it a different way.

 

[Punchbowl]

xxx

 

[Emperoreddy]

I still think Stannis go along with or is complicit in the burning of Shireen. What he hopes to gain from it most likely will be different, but I think this will be a big part of his fall and failure as a character.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

Not sure if I should ask this here or in the show thread. I can go to the other thread if wanted.

I've been wondering for quite some time now: How do book readers decide which elements from the show will be of significance for the books or be in the books at all?

I've read or heard multiple times now things like "it's bad but it will not be in the books, so calm down" or "not sure if this will have significance also in the books".

As far as I know Martin told the show makers the most important things till the end of the books. To me this means that the major events from the show will likely also appear in the books, even though the way to get there might differ.

But is there a reason to think that some things from S6 and S7 might not appear in the books at all or completely different? If so why and how, could anyone give an example?

Martin is an executive producer for heavens sake. Of course he tells them what to do, then they do it. It's like writing a book without having to do the writing. Great gig for GRRM!

 

[Emperoreddy]

Martin is an executive producer for heavens sake. Of course he tells them what to do, then they do it. It's like writing a book without having to do the writing. Great gig for GRRM!

It is a looser relationship now, if only because a lot of plot elements from the books were cut, and GRRM himself still doesn't really know how he is going to get form the end of Dance to the end game.

Still he gave them the broad strokes of what needs to happen so many things will be the same.

He confirmed that Hodor is going to happen in some capacity. We know Jon is a Targ, we can safely assume he and Dany will meet and hook up, Dany will rally the Dothraki, Jon will get raised by Mel, and on and on.