Books: A Song of Ice and Fire *SPOILERS* Part XV

[The Drop]

People attach themselves to specific characters. Stannis was very much the unlikeable, heartless jerk in the books as well.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Just curious, what's this infatuation with Stannis? Is he such a bland ******* in the books as he is in the movie? I did not read the books but in the movie his death was just a big shrug for me. I would be more pissed off if Hot Pie died than caring about Stannis fate.

Stannis is told from Ser Davos' point of view, and Ser Davos is somewhat biased when it comes to Stannis.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Stannis is told from Ser Davos' point of view, and Ser Davos is somewhat biased when it comes to Stannis.

Somewhat bias? Haha

I still love Davos even if I'm not a Mannis fanboy.

 

[Siamese Dream]

The whole point of Stannis' character is that he's supposed to be unlikeable, I find it utterly bizarre that there are seemingly so many "Stannis the Mannis" bros out there.

Also while we're on the subject of this season sucking, I went on Westeros.org and the vast majority, talking like 90% of people commenting, absolutely hated this episode.

 

[Emperoreddy]

The whole point of Stannis' character is that he's supposed to be unlikeable, I find it utterly bizarre that there are seemingly so many "Stannis the Mannis" bros out there.

Also while we're on the subject of this season sucking, I went on Westeros.org and the vast majority, talking like 90% of people commenting, absolutely hated this episode.

That is literally the last place to get a fair and balanced opinion about anything related to this franchise.

Is this your gimmick? You need to hate the show so much you need to go fish and find other people that constantly ***** about it as well?

 

[Blender]

And I do know the source material better then probably any one you can name.

...and? That has little to do with the validity of your opinion on the show. Would you say for example, value your opinion on the show more than someone who has watched it 5 times?

The books and the show are not the same thing. Even if they were more or less adapted 1:1, which is impossible, they would still have differences. You seem to judge the show solely on how close to the books they are, which has little to do with the actual quality of the episodes.

 

[Siamese Dream]

That is literally the last place to get a fair and balanced opinion about anything related to this franchise.

Is this your gimmick? You need to hate the show so much you need to go fish and find other people that constantly ***** about it as well?

Why? These are the people heavily invested enough to sign up for an internet forum, it's the GOT/ASOIAF version of HFBoards. These are the hardcore who know the world inside out, they're not the casuals who are giving every episode a 10 on imdb, or the people posting occasionally in the entertainment section of a hockey forum. Yes many of them are book readers but that was the original target audience of the series, the showrunners/writers did not expect it to get as popular as it has. I feel the show has become a victim of its own success, the casuals lap up all the fan service and action moments and still give it good ratings so D&D probably don't know any better.

I'm actually already signed up to Westeros.org for the book discussion section where mention of the show is not allowed, I just thought I'd go and see what they were saying over in the show section.

 

[Brodie]

La Cosa Nostra has been on here since the show was good talking about how it sucks and how Stannis was the best

he's never liked the show

Also, Stannis is a garbage character. People only like him because he has no nuance and they find that comforting in a series where all of the good characters occasionally commit atrocities. Which is the point GRRM is making, but they chose to ignore it by glomming on to "MINE BY RIGHTS" Stannis. He's basically Ned Stark with less warmth or personality, which should tell all the Stannis lovers exactly where he will end up.

 

[Kurtz]

She just became an acolyte in the books, she isn't close to being a master assassin. Not to mention her very first scene she's shown to be a master bowman also when in the books she doesn't know how to use a bow at that time. And just stop she uses the eyes of a cat when she is blind don't overrate her abilities.

And I do know the source material better then probably any one you can name.

...wait, are you seriously not familiar with her preview chapter from book 6?

edit - my bad, she sees through the cat's eyes in book 5. So you're not even aware of major stuff from book 5?

 

[Pilky01]

The whole point of Stannis' character is that he's supposed to be unlikeable, I find it utterly bizarre that there are seemingly so many "Stannis the Mannis" bros out there.

Also while we're on the subject of this season sucking, I went on Westeros.org and the vast majority, talking like 90% of people commenting, absolutely hated this episode.

As a much more casual fan I am with them. The more I think about this episode the more I hate it.

GOT better not pull a Spider-Man 3 and have a finale so terrible it retroactively makes everything that came before worse.

 

[Brodie]

also all of her wolf dreams where she is heavily implied to be controlling Nymeria as she kills Lannister soldiers... the books have all the Stark children except Sansa warging, it is even hinted that Robb could.

La Cosa Nostra strikes me as the kind of person who watches The Godfather 2 and strongly identifies with Michael while calling Kay "a *****". A lot of his critiques of GoT are based on them putting women into positions of power or respect.

 

[Blender]

La Cosa Nostra has been on here since the show was good talking about how it sucks and how Stannis was the best

he's never liked the show

Also, Stannis is a garbage character. People only like him because he has no nuance and they find that comforting in a series where all of the good characters occasionally commit atrocities. Which is the point GRRM is making, but they chose to ignore it by glomming on to "MINE BY RIGHTS" Stannis. He's basically Ned Stark with less warmth or personality, which should tell all the Stannis lovers exactly where he will end up.

Stannis is supposed to be unlikable. He's an authoritarian strongman, an absolutist, and is indifferent to the well being of the people. He definitely has positive qualities and is a competent person in a few areas, but you're not supposed to think he'd make a great ruler. He has to go around telling everyone the throne is "mine by right" because few people want to naturally follow him.

He's another archetype GRRM provided in his theme of why monarchy and primogeniture succession isn't a good way to choose leaders.

 

[Blender]

Also while we're on the subject of this season sucking, I went on Westeros.org and the vast majority, talking like 90% of people commenting, absolutely hated this episode.

The rate the episode poll there has 47.22% of people giving it a 7/10 or higher. Obviously not the most well loved episode ever, even on the forums here, but 90% hated it is hardly accurate.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Stannis is supposed to be unlikable. He's an authoritarian strongman, an absolutist, and is indifferent to the well being of the people. He definitely has positive qualities and is a competent person in a few areas, but you're not supposed to think he'd make a great ruler. He has to go around telling everyone the throne is "mine by right" because few people want to naturally follow him.

He's another archetype GRRM provided in his theme of why monarchy and primogeniture succession isn't a good way to choose leaders.

I wouldn't say he's indifferent. He's just a a black & white, by the numbers, eye for an eye character. Neither as dynamic as Robert not as charismatic as Renly. A competent but not inspiring authority figure.

 

[Blender]

I wouldn't say he's indifferent. He's just a a black & white, by the numbers, eye for an eye character. Neither as dynamic as Robert not as charismatic as Renly. A competent but not inspiring authority figure.

I'd say he's indifferent. He's very duty oriented and thinks everyone else should be the same. That leads him to being fine with thousands dying to further his goal as that is their duty. Their well being doesn't really factor into the equation for him, but he isn't cruel or sadistic about it either of course.

 

[Siamese Dream]

The rate the episode poll there has 47.22% of people giving it a 7/10 or higher. Obviously not the most well loved episode ever, even on the forums here, but 90% hated it is hardly accurate.

I specifically said 90% of commenters not all the Chad Summerchilds who gave it high ratings and then went away. Very few people actually taking the time to defend that position.

 

[Blender]

I specifically said 90% of commenters not all the Chad Summerchilds who gave it high ratings and then went away. Very few people actually taking the time to defend that position.

Yea but on that site the people who complain about the show every week are the loudest. That's been the case for years. A lot of volume and quantity from a small group of people is hardly a consensus.

 

[Punchbowl]

xxx

 

[Brodie]

While I do agree, I must also say that Westeros has never been consistently written as if it were actually the size of South America. You could read the books without ever coming to believe that this was the case, due to travel times and consistency of culture/language, not to mention the number of people who know each other on sight. The distances thing bothers me far less for that reason... GRRM may say it's a continent but we all know he's really thinking about Britain when he sits down and writes so I can forgive the show for ignoring the absurdity of the claimed size of the Seven Kingdoms.

 

[Warden of the North]

That is literally the last place to get a fair and balanced opinion about anything related to this franchise.

Is this your gimmick? You need to hate the show so much you need to go fish and find other people that constantly ***** about it as well?

While that may be true, this past episode had a lot of problem and a lot of people didnt like it. This forum here is indicative of that, for starters.

Teleportation has become a joke with regards to this franchise, if my social media feeds are any indication. That episode capped it off and solidified it as a meme.

 

[Frank the Tank]

On the topic of writing and GRRM vs D & D:


The two sides have very specific strengths and weaknesses, they made an exceptional combination in the earlier seasons when both parties were only relied on to contribute in the areas where they excelled.

GRRM is exceptional with meticulous details and realistic plotting. Not everything he writes is fascinating or particularly interesting from the perspective of entertainment (certain portions of Feast and Dance were a slog for me, at least) but everything he writes makes sense. There is a consistency of theme, plot, and character that is deeply satisfying on an intellectual level even if it doesn't always make for a compelling story. He's gotten lost in that setup during books 4/5 as his editors have seemingly stopped channeling his talent for plotting into actually resolving plotpoints (rather than endlessly creating new ones).

D&D provide the perfect counterpoint to that painstaking detail; they know what makes for thrilling, emotionally resonant scenes and events. However, they (and when I say 'they' I include the rest of their writing team) are willing to sacrifice logical consistency to reach those points. This wasn't particularly necessary in earlier seasons, though, when they had GRRM's writing to supply that logic.


The issue with the past three seasons is that D&D have had to rely on a dwindling supply of GRRM's logical consistency. The balance of contribution has shifted from, let's say, 70% GRRM 30% D&D, to 90% D&D and 10% GRRM. Without his obsessive focus on realism, they're left to do the tedious work of filling in details for which they likely don't have the same passion.

In episodes that are essentially set-pieces with very little reliance on careful plotting (the Battle of the ********, Hardhome, etc.) D&D deliver spectacular television. Ultimately, that's what they're paid to do; dazzle, not detail. When they're relied on to set up those moments of spectacle for themselves, however, they tend to sacrifice logic to amplify drama.


Just a disclaimer: I really don't mind waiting for the books from GRRM, there's an infinite supply of other stuff to read in the meantime, it's just too bad the delay has been detrimental to the show.

GRRM appears to be very slowly, carefully attempting to untie the Meereenese Knot, whereas D&D just started hacking at it. I agree that they worked best when their respective strengths could compliment each other.

 

[Blender]

While that may be true, this past episode had a lot of problem and a lot of people didnt like it. This forum here is indicative of that, for starters.

Teleportation has become a joke with regards to this franchise, if my social media feeds are any indication. That episode capped it off and solidified it as a meme.

The teleportation complaints are way overblown and unreasonable.

 

[Blender]

GRRM appears to be very slowly, carefully attempting to untie the Meereenese Knot, whereas D&D just started hacking at it. I agree that they worked best when their respective strengths could compliment each other.

They unfortunately don't have the time to dedicate that GRRM can with the books. They were painted into a bit of a corner with some of these GRRM plots, and had to quickly move the pieces into place for the endgame. It's definitely lead to some issues, but overall this is still one of the best shows on TV.

 

[Emperoreddy]

While I do agree, I must also say that Westeros has never been consistently written as if it were actually the size of South America. You could read the books without ever coming to believe that this was the case, due to travel times and consistency of culture/language, not to mention the number of people who know each other on sight. The distances thing bothers me far less for that reason... GRRM may say it's a continent but we all know he's really thinking about Britain when he sits down and writes so I can forgive the show for ignoring the absurdity of the claimed size of the Seven Kingdoms.

He also said he regrets making it that big because of this very problem. He just doesn't give a ****, and doesn't want readers to sweat over it either.

He isn't good with scale. He wanted to tell a story about the U.K. but he didn't understand how far 1000 miles really is. He has admitted as such.

You aren't a "Chad Summerchild" because you let the small stuff go and just enjoy it.

Also are we really using Preston's nonsense unironically now?

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Also, Stannis is a garbage character. People only like him because he has no nuance and they find that comforting in a series where all of the good characters occasionally commit atrocities. Which is the point GRRM is making, but they chose to ignore it by glomming on to "MINE BY RIGHTS" Stannis. He's basically Ned Stark with less warmth or personality, which should tell all the Stannis lovers exactly where he will end up.

Just because a character is straightfoward and lacks nuance doesn't mean it's a "garbage" character.

If anything, a character that oscillates randomly and without any reason between characterizations are much worse than obvious characters (see: show Arya)- because then said characters are used to introduce conflict where there would otherwise be no reason at all for conflict to be present. That's called a "blank check".

Stannis is supposed to be unlikable. He's an authoritarian strongman, an absolutist, and is indifferent to the well being of the people. He definitely has positive qualities and is a competent person in a few areas, but you're not supposed to think he'd make a great ruler. He has to go around telling everyone the throne is "mine by right" because few people want to naturally follow him.

He's another archetype GRRM provided in his theme of why monarchy and primogeniture succession isn't a good way to choose leaders.

There's fighting the battles of 4 decades ago, and then there's replacing "decades" with "centuries"....

But if anything, Stannis has a point. He arguably contributed more to the success of Robert's Rebellion than anyone not his brother and (arguably) Ned Stark, yet he was passed over by Renly, who did jack **** because he was an infant, 'cause Renly was handsome and charismatic.

He's too inflexible to be a competent ruler, but he's not wrong when he complains that the Game of Thrones is heavily weighted as a popularity contest (side note: something that has been completely removed from this show this season, there's not been a single mention of how the small folk view Cersei after all of her enemies were conveniently exploded at an event from which she was fortuitiously absent).