Books: A Song of Ice and Fire *SPOILERS* Part XV

[Siamese Dream]

It seems like a stretch that the books will have the real Aegon, a fake Aegon, and then an Aegon #2. I think it's more likely Jon's real name in the books is something else.

I think in the books it's most likely he has no name at all other than Jon, the name Ned gave him. We don't really know how long Lyanna was alive after his birth but I think it's possible she might not have had time to name him and would have been too preoccupied with the pain of dying (or maybe high on milk of the poppy if she was given it) I doubt it would have been like in Star Wars when a dying Padme gets presented with the babies and names them on the spot. (It's probably also worth mentioning that we're told Wildlings wait before they name their babies, so this opens up the possibility that Lyanna didn't have time to give him a name)

 

[KesselBuiltMyHotrod]

Lyanna was a wildling?

 

[Siamese Dream]

Lyanna was a wildling?

I didn't say that, I used this as an example that people (even in the modern day) don't always immediately name their children as soon as they are born, especially if they are suffering complications. I used the Wildlings example to back up my argument that Jon's birth probably wasn't like in Star Wars.

It does seem to vary depending on the character though, some characters in ASOIAF do have named stillborn children and some are unnamed, but it's not known whether they already thought of a name before the birth or gave them names after their death to honour and remember them.

But my personal opinion is Gurm probably won't give Jon a different name in the books. I wouldn't have a problem with it if he did, and to answer Blender yes I would hate it if it's Aegon.

 

[MadDevil]

My memory of the timeline is a bit fuzzy, but would Rhaegar and Elia's Aegon have been killed already by the time Lyanna gave birth to Jon? Or did the stuff in King's Landing happen after the Tower of Joy?

 

[Siamese Dream]

My memory of the timeline is a bit fuzzy, but would Rhaegar and Elia's Aegon have been killed already by the time Lyanna gave birth to Jon? Or did the stuff in King's Landing happen after the Tower of Joy?

Pretty sure the sack of King's Landing happens before the Tower of Joy

 

[Emperoreddy]

The problem here is in the books Aegon and Jon Snow appear to be two separate people. In the books, Aegon either died at the hands of Gregor Clegane which would make Young Griff an imposter or if he did in fact survive and that means he is the true heir to the iron throne. The show appears to be doing away with this story line altogether merging Jon Snow/Aegon into one character (despite having the scene where Clegane acknowledging raping Elia Martell and killing her children).

Rhaegar feels like he must name the Prince who is Promised Aegon, but realized his first son isn't it

He dumps his wife, married Lyanna, and gives birth to the child he now believes is the Prince who is promised and names him Aegon.

Young Griff is definitely a Blackfyre imposter. There is no merging happening here. Young Griff just isn't a true Targ

 

[Psyfer]

Pretty sure the sack of King's Landing happens before the Tower of Joy

It does but based on the tower of joy scene they had not received the news yet of the sacking as Ned goes directly there after fighting with Robert.

Aegon being fake its so wildly believed at this point that he is going to up being legit and the mummers dragon will be something else completely .

There is a bit of evidence this might be the truth considering Varys reveals his plan to Kevan at the end of A Dance with Dragons and he is going to kill Kevan so there is no reason to lie about anything at that point.

 

[Siamese Dream]

I think young Griff is legit for 2 reasons:

1) Tyrion figures out who he is mostly by himself without having to be told and he's he would be smart enough to think of the possibility that he's probably a Blackfyre pretender if that was the case but he doesn't even consider that possibility.

2) It introduces us to the possibility and practicality of baby swapping, this has paved the way for all sorts of other baby swapping theories, some or at least one of which might come true. (Like Beric Dondarrion is the introduction to resurrection possibility before Lady Stoneheart and probably Jon). In this case even if the young Griff plotline ends with their failure it won't be completely pointless.

Another thing about baby swapping, I think this is the purpose of mentioning how Jaime and Cersei were sometimes indistinguishable as babies. This makes it easier to believe that people might not notice if you swapped the babies. We even get a bonus example of much older children disguising themselves as one another - Myrcella and Rosamund.

 

[Blender]

It does but based on the tower of joy scene they had not received the news yet of the sacking as Ned goes directly there after fighting with Robert.

No he doesn't, Ned goes and lifts the siege of Storm's End after King's Landing. At the minimum weeks had gone by between Elia and her children being killed, and Ned arriving at the Tower of Joy. It could have been months, but weeks seems more likely. Judging from the pre-fight dialogue, it sounds like the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy were aware of both Rhaegar's death and the sack of King's Landing. We don't even know how Ned learns she is there.

As for Jon being named Aegon, I don't think D&D would drop a major plot point like that without GRRM being in on the decision or giving them the name. That just seems like one of those things with a lot of impact that GRRM outlined for them. Now we don't know for sure that this will be the case in the book, but I'd be surprised at this point if it isn't.

Two very plausible reasons I see Jon's name being Aegon, and both have been mentioned already:

1) Rhaegar named him because he fully believed that his son by Lyanna would be the Prince Who Was Promised and that this future King needed to be named Aegon to fulfill the prophecy.

2) Lyanna named him after Rhaegar, Elia, and all their children were dead. It was common practice in pre-modern times to use the name of a dead child for a new child.

Whether (f)Aegon is real or a pretender I don't think will even matter to the end game of the series. Even if he's real, I can't see him actually being around to sit on the throne any ways.

 

[Blender]

Then there's the one major plot change, where GRRM has him planning to marry Sansa to Harry the Heir in the Vale, D&D had him ship her off to marry Ramsay Bolton with no apparent plan other than letting her 'figure it out'. That's how he reveals his cards and outs himself (possibly, I don't think this was elaborated) as a traitor to the crown.

Just one correction to your post here, his plan in the show was not for Sansa to "figure it out", he was (rightly) assuming she would want help at some point and that he would come to her aid, save her, and restore Stark rule in the north with him controlling it. His plan was to trade Sansa to the Boltons, and then go tell Cersei that Sansa is being used by the Boltons in the North to strengthen their control. Cersei charges Littlefinger to eradicate either Stannis or the Boltons (whomever won) after some convincing, in exchange for naming him Warden of the North when he wins. He could also use Sansa to later press a claim on the Riverlands to restore Tully rule through her. Littlefinger actually had a pretty solid plan up until season 7, but he never accounted for Jon Snow. Littlefinger's whole plan collapsed because Jon Snow came down from Castle Black with 2000 or so of the Free Folk, and was then named King in the North.

It's season 7 where his scheming goes no where and was obviously stalled just to kill him. I agree 100% though that the path to his demise will be more complex in the books and won't likely go the same way, but I think he will come to an end in a similar way. He will over reach to try and gain more and more power, will be blocked by events he never calculated for, and then will be killed by Sansa or someone else he has played in the past who has had enough of him.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

They deleted a scene in which Sansa asks Bran's advice on gutting her crazy sister and Bran tells her LF betrayed Ned and is playing them now.

 

[Emperoreddy]

FAegon being real or fake is somewhat important though because it plays into who is the third head of the dragon.

 

[RandV]

Just one correction to your post here, his plan in the show was not for Sansa to "figure it out", he was (rightly) assuming she would want help at some point and that he would come to her aid, save her, and restore Stark rule in the north with him controlling it. His plan was to trade Sansa to the Boltons, and then go tell Cersei that Sansa is being used by the Boltons in the North to strengthen their control. Cersei charges Littlefinger to eradicate either Stannis or the Boltons (whomever won) after some convincing, in exchange for naming him Warden of the North when he wins. He could also use Sansa to later press a claim on the Riverlands to restore Tully rule through her. Littlefinger actually had a pretty solid plan up until season 7, but he never accounted for Jon Snow. Littlefinger's whole plan collapsed because Jon Snow came down from Castle Black with 2000 or so of the Free Folk, and was then named King in the North.

It's season 7 where his scheming goes no where and was obviously stalled just to kill him. I agree 100% though that the path to his demise will be more complex in the books and won't likely go the same way, but I think he will come to an end in a similar way. He will over reach to try and gain more and more power, will be blocked by events he never calculated for, and then will be killed by Sansa or someone else he has played in the past who has had enough of him.

Oops yeah I could easily have some of those details wrong, season 5-6 is kind of a blur to me and I remember what happened in the books much better.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

The Blackfyres were extinguished on the male line when Barristan killed Maelys the Monstrous in the WotNPK. The Blackfyres were considered more or less extinct.

It makes sense to me why Tyrion wouldn't think down those lines.

My hope for the books is that some of the old Valyrian swords start showing up. Blackfyre, Dark Sister, etc. If fAegon somehow gets his hands on Blackfyre itself, he'll have a major edge on Dany's claim. AtC's original sword sparked the original Blackfyre Rebellion to begin with.

 

[Jack Straw]

He'd hardly be the first ruler in history to name a couple kids the same thing.

George Foreman has five sons and they are all named George.

 

[Psyfer]

No he doesn't, Ned goes and lifts the siege of Storm's End after King's Landing. At the minimum weeks had gone by between Elia and her children being killed, and Ned arriving at the Tower of Joy. It could have been months, but weeks seems more likely. Judging from the pre-fight dialogue, it sounds like the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy were aware of both Rhaegar's death and the sack of King's Landing. We don't even know how Ned learns she is there.

As for Jon being named Aegon, I don't think D&D would drop a major plot point like that without GRRM being in on the decision or giving them the name. That just seems like one of those things with a lot of impact that GRRM outlined for them. Now we don't know for sure that this will be the case in the book, but I'd be surprised at this point if it isn't.

Two very plausible reasons I see Jon's name being Aegon, and both have been mentioned already:

1) Rhaegar named him because he fully believed that his son by Lyanna would be the Prince Who Was Promised and that this future King needed to be named Aegon to fulfill the prophecy.

2) Lyanna named him after Rhaegar, Elia, and all their children were dead. It was common practice in pre-modern times to use the name of a dead child for a new child.

Whether (f)Aegon is real or a pretender I don't think will even matter to the end game of the series. Even if he's real, I can't see him actually being around to sit on the throne any ways.

Honestly I dont think any prophecy is going to matter to the end of the series and that is kind of the point of the story is that prophecy is bs, Rhaegar was just a nutjob who started a war believing his son was a legendary hero and ends up getting himself and his children killed. Cersei is fulfilling Maegi's prophecy herself and Dany is completely paranoid now of everyone now that she was told she would be betrayed 3 times.

The show is going in a hollywood direction but I don't expect the books to have a happy ending and someone like Littlefinger could end up on the iron throne just to get backstabbed by Sansa at the end of the series

 

[Saskatoon]

FAegon being real or fake is somewhat important though because it plays into who is the third head of the dragon.

With one of Dany's dragons going down (which will probably happen in the books too) it could very well be the Night King

 

[Emperoreddy]

Do you think we see the Green Trial in the books? It always felt like a GRRM thing

 

[silverfish]

Absolutely ****ing hate that Jon's name is Aegon. Hate it. Don't like how the dragon still breathes fire and not ice. Is that how the wall is going to come down in the books? I can't imagine so. But. If the books and show differ in how the wall comes down, I mean, that's pretty huge, no?

Hoped Littlefinger got a "worse" death than that, but, was good to see that he wasn't playing Sansa at all. Really surprised they didn't call back to Arya being Tywin's "servant" and her witnessing Littelfinger there conspiring with the Lannisters. But. Whatever.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Do you think we see the Green Trial in the books? It always felt like a GRRM thing

Not sure. I think the general idea is certainly possible (Cersei blowing up most/all of her enemies with wildfire).

But who knows how the details will differ.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Absolutely ****ing hate that Jon's name is Aegon. Hate it. Don't like how the dragon still breathes fire and not ice. Is that how the wall is going to come down in the books? I can't imagine so. But. If the books and show differ in how the wall comes down, I mean, that's pretty huge, no?

Hoped Littlefinger got a "worse" death than that, but, was good to see that he wasn't playing Sansa at all. Really surprised they didn't call back to Arya being Tywin's "servant" and her witnessing Littelfinger there conspiring with the Lannisters. But. Whatever.

I don't hate it-I'm just curious what if anything it means for that story line in the books. As for the wall I can't imagine it can come down any other way.

 

[silverfish]

I don't hate it-I'm just curious what if anything it means for that story line in the books. As for the wall I can't imagine it can come down any other way.

I suppose we already knew the (f)Aegon storyline in the books was trash when they gave Connington's greyscale to Jorah. Oh well.

 

[KesselBuiltMyHotrod]

Absolutely ****ing hate that Jon's name is Aegon. Hate it. Don't like how the dragon still breathes fire and not ice. Is that how the wall is going to come down in the books? I can't imagine so. But. If the books and show differ in how the wall comes down, I mean, that's pretty huge, no?

The books made a big deal about the Horn of Joramun, but I don't remember it ever being mentioned on the show. Sam still has the horn found at the Fist in the book. They showed the horn in the show but I don't remember them ever talking about it.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Do you think we see the Green Trial in the books? It always felt like a GRRM thing

It absolutely is a GRRM thing.

Why bother to write meaningful resolutions to your plot threads when you can just blow them up?

 

[Psyfer]

It absolutely is a GRRM thing.

Why bother to write meaningful resolutions to your plot threads when you can just blow them up?

I cant tell whether your being sarcastic or not

But in the books the wildfire under the sept was found in book 2 so Cersei will have a hard time blowing it up