A defense first rebuild keeps salaries down

[Buds17]

Yeah they were probably hoping that if they struggled they could get a highly touted D prospect like Liljegren

Fascinating how that played out. Once projected to be the first d-man to go in that draft at 2nd overall, and the Leafs make the playoffs and end up being able to select him anyway. Just the same, once the draft ends, development takes over. Defencemen do seem to be more difficult to project in the draft in comparison to forwards, making a defence first rebuild a tougher task.

 

[ottomaddox]

What was the last defense 1st team that won a Cup?

Chicago, Boston, LA.

 

[ottomaddox]

Seems like the Leafs run and gun, lotsa goals for and against just drives salaries up.

If you build from the net outwards you keep salaries down ?

points are too much a factor in contract negotiations. Shouldn't players be paid for how they contribute to the whole team ?

This is a good topic and this is how I would build my team if I were in charge.

I think Leaf fans are driven by a narrative that Dubas and TOR are paiving the way for a new style of NHL. The leafs are on an upward trajectory, we are loaded with "young guns", therefore we will win with top end forwards.

Until TOR actually wins something I still think we are in for a few changes. They will have to improve the defense and sell off some forwards to make it happen.

 

[paulhiggins]

You need to draft the best players available. However to be successful you need to manage the non-draft assets well. This is where there have been errors in the Shanahan years. Couple that with a stubborn coach and lack of team toughness and you will have a tough route to the cup.

 

[Morbo]

Seems like the Leafs run and gun, lotsa goals for and against just drives salaries up.

If you build from the net outwards you keep salaries down ?

points are too much a factor in contract negotiations. Shouldn't players be paid for how they contribute to the whole team ?

If that was the team we had, you'd hear nothing but "you can't win without skill in hockey today" "boring team" "we'll never win a Cup if we can't score like the top teams" etc etc.

It would be the bizarro dimension version of the Leafs team we have now.

And eventually we'd need to add players who put up points anyway. which would still carry the same cap hit they do now.

so I think no, it wouldn't make much difference.

 

[Gallagbi]

Chicago, Boston, LA.

Chicago wasn't defense first.

 

[Bluelines]

I'm talking about getting Your blue line drafted first, not only the blue line.

the order. not the result.

There is a fallacy (not sure if that is the right word) in your theory you need to question.

Do you bypass Marner to draft Hanafin, Provorov or Werenski?
Do you bypass Nylander to draft Honka, Sanheim or DeAngelo?
Do you bypass Matthews to draft Juolevi, Sergachev or Bean?

I think you need to draft BPA and if you happen to have a glut of talent on the front end hope you can trade from a position of strength, if you see down the road you have a need, then trade.

My personal strategy would be to draft BPA, if there is a toss up between center and winger, I would draft the center. If there is an immediate need for d-man on the big team, I draft BPA and hope I can move the BPA for a NHL ready D-man after the fact.

Defence and goalies typically take so long to develop you either have to have extreme patience or hope some of these guys take the fast track.

I don't think the theory is wrong to build from goal out but if the strategy is to build from the goal out only through the draft and you take into consideration the long time it takes to develop D and G , IMO that is a 5 to 7 year time line before your team is ready to be competitive.

 

[I am Canadian]

Yeah they were probably hoping that if they struggled they could get a highly touted D prospect like Liljegren

I don't think they were hoping to struggle but I think they were planning on having a few more high/mid first rounders. It was a pleasant surprise all around but our defensive prospect pool took a hit.

 

[Morbo]

Chicago, Boston, LA.

2010 Hawks: 3rd in GF
2013 Hawks: 2nd in GF

you're thinking of the 2015 team I guess, but even they were a midpack offensive team.

Boston was 8th in GF the year they won.

really you've got the Kings, basically.

 

[ottomaddox]

Chicago wasn't defense first.

Do you really mean to throw lob balls like that at me?

Did Toews ever win a Selke trophy or Keith a Norris? Did Hossa float out there the whole time?

Are you really going to stand behind what you just typed?

 

[ottomaddox]

2010 Hawks: 3rd in GF
2013 Hawks: 2nd in GF

you're thinking of the 2015 team I guess, but even they were a midpack offensive team.

Boston was 8th in GF the year they won.

really you've got the Kings, basically.

No. Your stats don't support anything.

 

[Gallagbi]

Do you really mean to throw lob balls like that at me?

Did Toews ever win a Selke trophy or Keith a Norris? Did Hossa float out there the whole time?

Are you really going to stand behind what you just typed?

Absolutely. Stats are posted above and I've done deep dives on it too many times to count.

Do some reading, then come back. Having some good/adequate defensive players doesn't mean you were built in D first.

I also feel like I could put it on a tee for you and you'd still miss it given your post history.

 

[Jack Bauer]

I don't think they were hoping to struggle but I think they were planning on having a few more high/mid first rounders. It was a pleasant surprise all around but our defensive prospect pool took a hit.

It did? We made the playoffs and still picked a guy who was a pre-season top 5 rated prospect. Maybe the same guy we would have taken if we missed the playoffs and picked 8th overall for all any of us know.

The only non mid-1st we've had in years was this past draft and we picked a D in Sandin.

Since drafting the big 3 our last 2 1sts were both used on D. So how did our prospect pool take any hit?

 

[Tak7]

what happens if the middle roster guys get too many points ?

Trade them / let them leave: See: van Reimsdyk, James.

 

[Tak7]

This is why we need to keep an eye on the Kadri, Gardiner, Zaitsev, Brown and Marleau contracts. If Kadri is Brayden Schenn on the third line, you keep him. If he starts looking like Dave Bolland, you gotta get rid of him.

I'm fine with most of the players on your list. The Zaitsev contract makes me uncomfortable, but I still think it's low enough AAV that you can get contribution out of the player for it.

Marleau is the one I don't like, particularly because I think that money would have been better spent on JvR. But, the term is low enough and the Leafs cap situation decent enough that you can get away with it.

Once the kids deals kick in, on top of Tavares, Andersen, Kadri, Rielly who are all signed with some term left, the cap situation gets very marginal - you can't afford to make too many more mistakes

 

[Tak7]

Yeah they were probably hoping that if they struggled they could get a highly touted D prospect like Liljegren

If Liljegren plays a full season in his draft year, he goes top 10.

Loads of teams shied away because of his lack of play

 

[LeafFever]

Do you really mean to throw lob balls like that at me?

Did Toews ever win a Selke trophy or Keith a Norris? Did Hossa float out there the whole time?

Are you really going to stand behind what you just typed?

Look at their team structure. Toews winning a Selke doesn't turn them defense first.

 

[Morbo]

No. Your stats don't support anything.

I'm sorry...what?

 

[HamiltonNHL]

I draft BPA and hope I can move the BPA for a NHL ready D-man after the fact.

which gets back to the idea ... how many Top 2 RHD have been traded in the last 10 years ? What was the cap hit ?

 

[BertCorbeau]

No. Your stats don't support anything.

Seems to me like the stats support the fact that the Hawks' cups were built off of predominantly offensive teams, not defense first teams as you suggest.

 

[Bluelines]

which gets back to the idea ... how many Top 2 RHD have been traded in the last 10 years ? What was the cap hit ?

How many top 2 goalies, LW, RW, Centers have been traded in the last 10 years?

 

[Jack Bauer]

To me the last "defensive" teams to win were the 07 Ducks and maybe the 08 Wings. Almost everything since has been pure offense and the last 2 Cup winners by many peoples opinions here should have had no shot at winning a thing. Pittsburgh had Hainsey/Domoulin as a regular pairing with no Letang and missed Murray for a huge chunk and Washington won after losing Shattenkirk, Alzner, and Schmidt prior to the season and only added Kempny.

 

[Paradoc]

Seems to me like the stats support the fact that the Hawks' cups were built off of predominantly offensive teams, not defense first teams as you suggest.

Actually, in the years they won the Stanley cup, Chicago allowed the fewest goals except for the first year they won in which they were 5th in GA. Chicago was definitely strong defensively.

 

[Morbo]

Actually, in the years they won the Stanley cup, Chicago allowed the fewest goals except for the first year they won in which they were 5th in GA. Chicago was definitely strong defensively.

That wasnt the claim made though

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Would a trap style D with very D orientated players and a solid goalie be a good strategy for cap floor teams ?