Post-Game Talk: #77: Maple Leafs 4 at FLYERS 5 (1-0 SO), Wednesday, Mar. 27, 2019, 7:00 p.m. ET

[VladDrag]

Just watched the replay of the Nylander goal (fell asleep at 2nd intermission).

Ghost with an absolutely horrible decision, but there are reasons as to why he made that decision.

TK goes off for a change and JVR is at the other blue line. Myers has basically one decision to pass to Ghost who has one outlet pass option to Patrick who came circling back. Toronto did a good job of pressuring Myers to force the pass to Ghost. They then swarmed Ghost. It was a textbook pressure forecheck. Patrick was also fairly well marked.

Ghost should have went off the boards, or JVR should have come back down low to offer support for a breakout. But as we’ve seen often in this system, he’s up there for a home run pass.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I like Ghost but if there was a decent offer on the table for him I would move him. He is soft defending the crease and he still makes some brutal decisions when pressured.

For his cap hit, "decent" is a terrible return. He's worth an overpayment.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I'm talking about the body of work of our Dmen in general. Ghost gets noticeably punished while subpar D-men can make numerous bad plays every night and not get the same treatment.

That’s because the type of turnovers Ghost makes leave the team in the most vulnerable defensive positions & are completely unnecessary—just the result of stupidly trying to force high-risk plays that aren’t there instead of keeping it simple.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Just watched the replay of the Nylander goal (fell asleep at 2nd intermission).

Ghost with an absolutely horrible decision, but there are reasons as to why he made that decision.

TK goes off for a change and JVR is at the other blue line. Myers has basically one decision to pass to Ghost who has one outlet pass option to Patrick who came circling back. Toronto did a good job of pressuring Myers to force the pass to Ghost. They then swarmed Ghost. It was a textbook pressure forecheck. Patrick was also fairly well marked.

Ghost should have went off the boards, or JVR should have come back down low to offer support for a breakout. But as we’ve seen often in this system, he’s up there for a home run pass.

Yeah, this is why I've been saying I wanted to see what the forwards were doing. At the time it looked like he only had the one option.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Ghost passed the puck right in his own slot where two players were waiting to pick it off for the tying goal. I love Ghost but that was an egregious error. No one else made an error that bad in the whole game except when the puck bounced on Tavares.

We have dmen who makes egregious errors like that routinely and they never get benched.

Gudas lazily slopping the puck to the slot to hang Couts out to dry was just as dumb if not dumber because he still had more options than Ghost did.

He wasn't benched.

 

[Larry44]

We have dmen who makes egregious errors like that routinely and they never get benched.

Gudas lazily slopping the puck to the slot to hang Couts out to dry was just as dumb if not dumber because he still had more options than Ghost did.

He wasn't benched.

True, everyone makes mistakes, some more than others. I don't want them to make any rash personnel decisions until they hire a real coach who establishes a real system.

Provorov is a minute munching, elite stud. Sanheim is really coming on - tremendous speed, talent and instincts - and might end up better than Provy overall. Myers looks like he's got natural offensive instincts too, along with speed and size. Ghost slots in at #4 for me, right now, in the long term depth chart.

Morin looks like he's going to be just fine. Got himself down ice trying to get involved, has no problem skating and defending fast players. A good #5-6 for years to come.

Real questions Chuckles has to answer: Do you get rid of Gudas and go for a big top pairing UFA Dman (Karlsson is really the only elite option and probably unattainable, Tyler Myers would make our Dcorp HUGE, Edler's pretty good) or trade for someone like Trouba?

If they add a top 4 Dman, Ghost could play with Morin in the 3rd pairing - with each getting extra icetime on PP and PK respectively.

Provorov-? UFA or Trade (Karlsson/Trouba?)
Sanheim-Myers
Morin-Ghost
Hagg

That's a very solid group, even without external additions, and all we really need is for one of the prospects to step in eventually (Hogberg, Kalynuk) to replace Gudas.

Provorov-Sanheim
Ghost-Gudas
Morin-Myers
Hagg

This would be a good enough group for me next year, rather than force a change by adding a substandard UFA just to say they did and make Scott happy.

 

[PhlthyRich]

True, everyone makes mistakes, some more than others. I don't want them to make any rash personnel decisions until they hire a real coach who establishes a real system.

I don’t think we’ll actively shop Ghost, but similar to Schenn, if someone makes a great offer Fletcher may pull the trigger. But based off the Simmonds trade, Fletcher wants players/returns that can help now instead of later.

 

[Prongo]

I don’t think we’ll actively shop Ghost, but similar to Schenn, if someone makes a great offer Fletcher may pull the trigger. But based off the Simmonds trade, Fletcher wants players/returns that can help now instead of later.

Never listen to the “not shopping” BS you hear. If a player is mentioned and not immediately shot down, that player is available.

I think they might look to trade Ghsot which scares the hell out of me and I have no ambition to do so. But I think Tampa or Florida might be a great landing spot. Two teams that we can really make a hockey trade with I believe if it comes to that.

 

[VladDrag]

I really don’t know what kind of massive overpayment would look like that I would be happy with if Ghost was traded

 

[PhlthyRich]

Never listen to the “not shopping” BS you hear. If a player is mentioned and not immediately shot down, that player is available.

I think they might look to trade Ghsot which scares the hell out of me and I have no ambition to do so. But I think Tampa or Florida might be a great landing spot. Two teams that we can really make a hockey trade with I believe if it comes to that.

His name did come up around the TDL. It’s easy for fans to forget a player’s impact and/or success when he’s going through a rough season. Two years ago fans were saying its going to be tough to get good value for Giroux in a trade when he wasn’t himself.

 

[StarterHart]

Zero problems with Ghost being benched for that give away. Just awful for a player of his skill level.

So a high skill player should be benched for making an awful mistake while the player who is consistently terrible at all times keeps playing. K.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

I really don’t know what kind of massive overpayment would look like that I would be happy with if Ghost was traded

There is a 0% chance that UpChuck would be on the right side of that overpay - we would (and we will, because it's going to happen) be lucky to break even and get back fair value for Ghost, but we won't. We'll do something like trading other pieces and top prospects for Dougie Hamilton, then get the most Ryan Hartmanesque available forward in exchange for Ghost. Then we'll trade Morin and our 1st for the right to negotiate with Kevin Hayes before anyone else.

 

[Tripod]

Personally, I have no issue benching Ghost for that pass.

10 minutes to go in the game, winning 4-3, and he CHOOSES to attempt a pass, thru 2 guys right in the slot. And not just 2 guys, but Matthews and Nylander...2 guys with great sticks. It was dumb. And as I said in the GDT, there was no upside to making that pass. It was 90% risk, with no reward. At BEST, that pass gets thru and it's 4 vs 3 the other way. And seeing it again, a 3rd Leafs forward was on that side of the ice. It's just a pass you cannot make the decision to make. It was beyond dumb.

Given the timing of the game, who it was, risk, etc... all he had to do it move it up the boards where there would have been a 1 vs 1 battle for that puck at the far blueline. Not sexy, but smart. That is what was needed at that moment and Ghost chose wrong.

Now in saying that, I don't want Ghost traded because he CAN do things that our other Dmen can't. He is the only one ever to get Norris votes and has done it in multiple years. His value and ability vs his contract can be a huge win for us. We need to replace the lowest end Dmen, not the guys able to the top. Hopefully AMac is done...but I will believe it when I see it. Hagg is the next that needs replacing. Morin hopefully can show them that he is a bigger, better, faster, smarter version of him. Gudas has 1 year left so in no way should we be trading Ghost when have at least 3 Dmen worse than him and in some years, have 6 Dmen worse.

Ghost is still 32nd in D points and tied for 43rd at ES. There is absolutely no reason to throw that away especially when this is a down year for him. And look closer at him under Gordon. Under Gordon, he is 25th in D points, and 20th at ES. He is also +1 for those that throw his bad+/- at him. So context IS needed.

43 games under Gordon: 23 pts, 17 at ES, 6 on PP, +1
31 games under Hakstol: 13 pts, 6 at ES, 7 on PP, -18

The big point issue is on the PP....just like it has been for Giroux, and Voracek. The PP setup stopped ALL 3 from being in 1-timer spots and it hurt them all.

So Ghost has NOT been awful all year like some people say. He had an awful start and then has actually played well even though that gets ignored by some who want to trade him. Last night, he was excellent in creating plays on give and goes in the OZ that led to multiple scoring chances. He also f***ed up on the Nylander goal, the Ennis pass, and also got burned by Tavares at the blue line on a zone entry. It was a bad game for me because his mistakes outweighed the good. Haters will say that happens all the time, but it doesn't. They just remember the bad more. Having someone who CAN be dynamic is not something we should be eager to throw away. But he needs to know that there are times to dial it back given the time, score of the game as well as the risk/reward ratio. And in a game that means nothing, remind him of that by benching him. And for those saying Hagg and AMac make dumb plays too without benching, well I have higher standards for Ghost and he is part of the future. They should be. Make the point now, to have a better player later.

I won't reply to all who may reply to this as this is just my opinion of him. He deserves the negativeness he is getting today because it was a dumb play all around. But also don't lose sight of all the upside he can bring and the ELITE play he has proven he is capable of. He can bring a level that NONE of our other Dmen have proven they can bring. Don't dismiss that so easy and assume they can. "Don't know whatcha got, till it's gone".

 

[baudib1]

^^ yeah I agree to all of that really. It was a pretty awful play. Those who read the GDTs know I complain about the Gordon system and the terrible breakouts and lack of forward support more than anyone, but it was still a terrible play by someone who should know better.

He still had a lot of good moments in the game, including some nice defensive plays.

Sanheim deserved to play in the OT, and frankly the decision was rewarded because he actually scored the GWG.

 

[Beef Invictus]

True, everyone makes mistakes, some more than others. I don't want them to make any rash personnel decisions until they hire a real coach who establishes a real system.

Provorov is a minute munching, elite stud. Sanheim is really coming on - tremendous speed, talent and instincts - and might end up better than Provy overall. Myers looks like he's got natural offensive instincts too, along with speed and size. Ghost slots in at #4 for me, right now, in the long term depth chart.

Morin looks like he's going to be just fine. Got himself down ice trying to get involved, has no problem skating and defending fast players. A good #5-6 for years to come.

Real questions Chuckles has to answer: Do you get rid of Gudas and go for a big top pairing UFA Dman (Karlsson is really the only elite option and probably unattainable, Tyler Myers would make our Dcorp HUGE, Edler's pretty good) or trade for someone like Trouba?

If they add a top 4 Dman, Ghost could play with Morin in the 3rd pairing - with each getting extra icetime on PP and PK respectively.

Provorov-? UFA or Trade (Karlsson/Trouba?)
Sanheim-Myers
Morin-Ghost
Hagg

That's a very solid group, even without external additions, and all we really need is for one of the prospects to step in eventually (Hogberg, Kalynuk) to replace Gudas.

Provorov-Sanheim
Ghost-Gudas
Morin-Myers
Hagg

This would be a good enough group for me next year, rather than force a change by adding a substandard UFA just to say they did and make Scott happy.

Yeah, Gudas does feel like an odd-man out when you start getting down to it.

What's neat about those pairings is that all of them could handle equal ice time. A 3-5 minute reduction for Provorov could possibly be beneficial to him and the team by extension.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Gotta assume Hart is drinking some nourishing chocolate milk there. Unfortunately all that sugar induced inflammation will definitely keep him off Team Canada.

 

[GKJ]

I'm talking about the body of work of our Dmen in general. Ghost gets noticeably punished while subpar D-men can make numerous bad plays every night and not get the same treatment.

It's just the type of player he is and old habits die hard from people who think all six or seven defensemen have to be rock solid when the chips are down, and the feeling I'm getting is that with him they don't and there are 40-50-point defensemen who can.

Let's throw this one out there, let's say they sign someone like Karlsson or Gardiner, who is the most likely guy that's replaced (MacDonald doesn't count, anyone can do that).

Yeah, Gudas does feel like an odd-man out when you start getting down to it.

What's neat about those pairings is that all of them could handle equal ice time. A 3-5 minute reduction for Provorov could possibly be beneficial to him and the team by extension.

I don't see them jettisoning Gudas with the way he plays.

 

[Striiker]

Yea I mean Ghost is already one of the best dmen in Flyers history production wise. Just use him right and take off the chains. He’s hard to game plan for. When he was at his best Tortz was game planning for The Ghost.

Exactly. Not sure why this is so hard to understand for some people.

 

[deadhead]

I'm agnostic about Ghost, I'm pretty sure we'll never see rookie Ghost again (in terms of pure physical talent), I'm not sure which Ghost is the one going forward, last year or this year.

This year's Ghost isn't a bad defenseman, but he's far from elite. An solid offensive, mediocre defensive 2nd pair D-man who needs to be somewhat sheltered. Who is still valuable on the PP and holds his own at ES, but is nothing special.

If I'm Fletcher, I want to know why Ghost fell off this season, was it injuries or did the league adjust to him?
If it's the later, this may be the Ghost we have going forward.

 

[renberg]

I've been on the trade Ghost train all season an actually before that. Its not that he doesn't have skills because he does. Its that he's 26 years old now; this isn't his first rodeo and he still has not learned to tone down his act and fit the needs of the team when he is on the ice. Some of the things that the does makes one questions hockey IQ. CIP, that pass last night that led to Toronto's tying goal. Where did he think that was going to be a good play? Its similar to some of the cross ice passes that Jake makes in the offensive end. These guys are good players but then there are the brain cramps.
IMO, its to the point where one of two things need to happen. Ghost needs to be sat down and convinced to work as hard on his defensive game as he does his offensive one. No one can expect him, with his size, to be a physically overpowering defender but a la Timonen he can learn to position himself better; cut off passing lanes; improve his stick on the ice defense, etc. What he is doing here now just isn't cutting it. If he doesn't buy into that, the only other option is obvious-change his address.

 

[Striiker]

 

[FlyersMania2]

Ghost is a special talent who came into his own without a good veteran Dman around. Can you imagine if Ghost had a year or two with Kimmo (who isn't my favorite player but a good veteran example)? Our young core has had to do a lot of growing up and maturing into the game on their own or under the wings of freaking AMac. FREAKING AMac is the veteran D of the corps... we should all be beyond grateful most of our young Dmen aren't ruined.

PS I still think Hagg would be this version of Hagg no matter who he had with him.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

The reasons for trading Gostisbehere is the same reasons that produced some doozy of trades over the years.

I can’t imagine a scenario where we aren’t just taking a bath in a return for him. These kind of scenarios are exactly what any smart GM should be looking for to take advantage of someone.

 

[Striiker]

These "trade Ghost" suggestions are already obviously extremely stupid, but they're going to reach "trade Giroux" levels of stupid in the near future.

People just love embarrassing themselves.

 

[Hextallent63]

Morin looked like an nhl defenseman. An upgrade over two regulars the last two seasons.

I only caught a few minutes of the game but saw Morin on the bench a few times and he looked like apig in s***. It was pretty cool to see