Post-Game Talk: #77: Maple Leafs 4 at FLYERS 5 (1-0 SO), Wednesday, Mar. 27, 2019, 7:00 p.m. ET

[deadhead]

Watching you criticize a pair that hasn't scratched the level of permanence of the absolutely disastrous 8-47 matchup when you were never this critical of them being together at any point is hilarious.

Wrong, Hagg - Gudas is the worst pairing in a very long time by any standard, eyeball, metrics, etc.
Far worse than 8-47, at least MacDonald has some mobility and can handle a puck.

 

[Adtar02]

Ghost's skating has declined, anyone who has watched the Flyers knows that, it's obvious as night and day.
Doesn't mean he's a bad skater, he's just not the explosive waterbug he was as a rookie, he lacks top end speed, he's lost his great burst, and opposing players are no longer afraid of being juked out of their jocks by him.

As Ghost showed last year, that won't keep him from being effective if he plays a smart, disciplined game.
This year he's been sloppy, first struggling with Provorov, then under Gordon.
last year HDCF/CA 212/194
this year HDCF/CA 191/191

It's not Ghost is good/bad, rather those claiming he's elite are simply blowing it out of their posterior.
Last season Ghost was very good, only lacking the physical presence or great speed to be a dominating defenseman.
This year he's good, but nothing special and easily replaced.
The question is which is the real Ghost now that he's no longer an elite skater.

Well when he played with provy. It was provy who was the problem not ghost this year. Anyone who watches the flyers knows that. And he isn’t struggling at skating. He has been coach away from the spin moves and fast breaks. First by your bed fellow David. Now by Gordon who preaches long shots out of the d zone.

His skating isn’t as electric as it was. Don’t think it’s a decline. Again his best play has away been on the right side. Not shocking that he looks better there. But our I am too smart coaches and fans claim he needs the left side. He doesn’t need to be a physical presence. We have others for that. Not hagg!!!! The better ones. He needs to use his iq and read plays to play well.

I rewatched the goal from this game and it was high risk play but also the only player to pass to. The opening closed fast. Had he gone up the boards ala hagg it would have been a turn over too. I don’t fault ghost for trying to keep possession. He didn’t have much. I have no problem with benching him. Especially if it isn’t his best game. I have a problem with the same not happening to hagg or provy. I have a problem with fans over exaggerating his mistakes. And thinking he should be trade bait. While he is still the at worst the the third best defender on a team that has a bad group for years. And for his down year. Those numbers you showed are darn close.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Wrong, Hagg - Gudas is the worst pairing in a very long time by any standard, eyeball, metrics, etc.
Far worse than 8-47, at least MacDonald has some mobility and can handle a puck.

Ah, you're answering me now.


How come you're able to pass so many judgements on Gordon so soon?

 

[deadhead]

Because he's so bad.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

LOL, the pysche table flip is 10/10... hahahahaahah

 

[Adtar02]

Because he's so bad.

But getting more out of the players than hak. Yes his system bleeds shots. Yes the goalies are better. But so are the rest of the players. Their corsi as you will quote is system generated. Not actual play. The entire team but a few were not doing well with Hak. The entire team is scoring better with Gordon. It’s just a bad system. That bleeds shots against

 

[Beef Invictus]

Because he's so bad.

And yet better than Hakstol.

 

[Striiker]

And yet better than Hakstol.

I seem to remember a certain group of posters last year who argued that the fact that the Flyers were winning in the 2nd half of the year was proof that Hakstol was a good coach. It was all based on the logic that if the team is winning, clearly that means the coach is doing something right... since results are all that matter, right?

But wait a second... wouldn't that mean Gordon is a good coach? After all, they have been winning a lot.

I wonder what suddenly changed....

 

[deadhead]

If Gordon could win like Hakstol did with Mrazek (.891), Lyon (.905) and Elliott (.892 after Jan 1), I'd call him a good coach.
Gordon has had great goal tending since Jan 1: Hart (.924), Elliott (.912), Stolarz (.928).
Not that league average S% was .908 last year, .905 this year.

 

[Beef Invictus]

If Gordon could win like Hakstol did with Mrazek (.891), Lyon (.905) and Elliott (.892 after Jan 1), I'd call him a good coach.
Gordon has had great goal tending since Jan 1: Hart (.924), Elliott (.912), Stolarz (.928).
Not that league average S% was .908 last year, .905 this year.

Hakstol has received similar goaltending before too, and he still sucked.

 

[Adtar02]

Did I say he was a good coach? No I didn’t. I said he has gotten the players to play better for him in a worse system. He is better at getting more out of his players which is factually true. Still bad just not Hak bad.

 

[wasup]

I'm still basking in the victory of this game 3 days later , it,s allowed me to save some face .

 

[deadhead]

Hakstol has received similar goaltending before too, and he still sucked.

The only time Hakstol got good goaltending was 2015-16 (.917 v league average (LA) 0f .910)
He made the playoffs that year with 96 points.
2016-17: .901, LA .910
2017-18: .904, LA .908
2018-19: .880, LA .905
That 2015-16 team had six forwards, Giroux, Simmonds, Schenn, Voracek, Couts, Raffl.
Read was on the downslope, Laughton couldn't play defense (and would be demoted the next season), White, Gagner, PEB, VdV, Umberger/Cousins
Defense: MDZ (52g), Streit (62g), Ghost, Gudas, Schultz, Manning, Medvedev, MacDonald

Gordon has far more talent at his disposal and is on a 96 point pace.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The only time Hakstol got good goaltending was 2015-16 (.917 v league average (LA) 0f .910)
He made the playoffs that year with 96 points.
2016-17: .901, LA .910
2017-18: .904, LA .908
2018-19: .880, LA .905
That 2015-16 team had six forwards, Giroux, Simmonds, Schenn, Voracek, Couts, Raffl.
Read was on the downslope, Laughton couldn't play defense (and would be demoted the next season), White, Gagner, PEB, VdV, Umberger/Cousins
Defense: MDZ (52g), Streit (62g), Ghost, Gudas, Schultz, Manning, Medvedev, MacDonald

Gordon has far more talent at his disposal and is on a 96 point pace.

He made the playoffs and then got blown apart by a superior coach.

Here's the thing: Goaltending isn't everything. It doesn't make or break coaches on its own, and it's perfectly possible to judge coaching independent of what's happening in net. System and roster usage are even important, which you've conceded by bashing Gordon for them. Hakstol sucked ass at both.

 

[deadhead]

He made the playoffs and then got blown apart by a superior coach.

Here's the thing: Goaltending isn't everything. It doesn't make or break coaches on its own, and it's perfectly possible to judge coaching independent of what's happening in net. System and roster usage are even important, which you've conceded by bashing Gordon for them. Hakstol sucked ass at both.

Goaltending isn't everything but it's the most important thing, especially with a coach running a conservative, defensive scheme. Ask Trotz.
And that 2015-16 roster was awful, 2 lines, 2 offensive D-men (one a green rookie), and the rest was dreck.
And the top line wasn't playing at an elite level like the last two years.

All Gordon did was move up Sanheim after a year and a half in the league, at some point his minutes were going to increase.
The rest has just been shuffling bodies, the result has been really poor possession and no improvement on defense.
Lindblom would have moved back up at some point (took Gordon 3 weeks), and he moved TK down to make room for him.

Funny watching Berube make the playoffs and Gordon missing, remember the crap Berube took around here.
But of course, it's goaltender luck.

 

[Striiker]

I wonder if doing things like...
-benching Weise, Lehtera, and MacDonald
-taking Hagg off the top pair
-actually using Sanheim
... do anything to make the goalies job easier.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Goaltending isn't everything but it's the most important thing, especially with a coach running a conservative, defensive scheme. Ask Trotz.
And that 2015-16 roster was awful, 2 lines, 2 offensive D-men (one a green rookie), and the rest was dreck.
And the top line wasn't playing at an elite level like the last two years.

All Gordon did was move up Sanheim after a year and a half in the league, at some point his minutes were going to increase.
The rest has just been shuffling bodies, the result has been really poor possession and no improvement on defense.
Lindblom would have moved back up at some point (took Gordon 3 weeks), and he moved TK down to make room for him.

Funny watching Berube make the playoffs and Gordon missing, remember the crap Berube took around here.
But of course, it's goaltender luck.

A defensive scheme aids goalies, goalies don't make a defensive scheme. And Trotz is not nearly as conservative as you think, in fact your read of him is dead wrong. Trotz is perfectly eager to apply offensive pressure. They have Lehner as their goalie, you can't seriously believe that he's making that whole thing tick?

Gordon minimized the terrible players that Hakstol overused and began playing the guys Hakstol ignored. That is the biggest difference. All those small changes you insisted wouldn't matter? They mattered after all.

That 2015-16 roster had great top-end talent; so great they overcame their coaching. Weird how you always choose to ignore that. Weird how you also ignore that Hakstol amplified roster deficiencies by overplaying bad players. Even weird is that you insist on harshly judging Gordon after steadfastly refusing to judge Hakstol. Amazing double standard, that.

Don't get me wrong, Gordon sucks. But you're violating everything you argued about how to judge coaches for years.

 

[deadhead]

I wonder if doing things like...
-benching Weise, Lehtera, and MacDonald
-taking Hagg off the top pair
-actually using Sanheim
... do anything to make the goalies job easier.

Sanheim on the first pair certainly doesn't make goalies life easier, more offense, but he's not exactly a top flight defender.
Replacing Weise, Lehtera and Weal with Varone, Bailey and Knight? Has anyone noticed a difference???
Hagg was +9 the first two months, cratered when he was partnered with Gudas.

Hagg first 31 games: HDCF/CA 89/90 - next 46 games 101/151
Sanheim first 31 games: HDCF/CA 98/59 - next 46 games 142/141
Gudas first 31 games: HDCF/CA 86/52 - next 46 games 113/113
Total 273/201 v 356/405
I'd say Gordon's changes made life much harder on the goalies!!!

Flyers' defense is far sloppier under Gordon than Hakstol.

 

[deadhead]

They have Lehner as their goalie, you can't seriously believe that he's making that whole thing tick?

Lehner
2015-16 .924 S%
2016-17 .920 S%
2018-19 .926 S%
maybe going off the bottle helped him to regain his mojo?

Greiss
2015-16 .925 S%
2016-17 .913 S%
2018-19 .926 S%
maybe getting away from Weight helped him?

It's not like these were two goalies with no track record of success before Trotz arrived.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Lehner
2015-16 .924 S%
2016-17 .920 S%
2018-19 .926 S%
maybe going off the bottle helped him to regain his mojo?

Greiss
2015-16 .925 S%
2016-17 .913 S%
2018-19 .926 S%
maybe getting away from Weight helped him?

It's not like these were two goalies with no track record of success before Trotz arrived.

Good systems aid goalies. Like I said.

It isn't a coincidence that both goalies have seen jumps in performance.

 

[deadhead]

Yes, back to their "norms."

Lehner was available because he had a drinking problem, not because he wasn't a good goalie.
Greisse went downhill with Weight who was a horrible HC (80 points last year with good goalies, JT and Barzal).
Halak: .914, .918, .915, .908, this year .923 with Boston.
Weight also dragged Halak down.

If we had Greisse and Halak the last three years we'd have made the playoffs each season and Hakstol would still be HC. Hakstols' scheme is goalie friendly, what people complained about was the offense.
So be thankful for Elliott and Neuvirth.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

maybe going off the bottle helped him to regain his mojo?

Just read Lehner's article in the Athletic. I had no idea. Certainly explains why Hextall didn't sign him, knowing Hextall. I hope the Flyers weren't the team that laid into him in an interview. Good luck to the man and I wish him continued success and health.

 

[EasyMac]

Greiss
2015-16 .925 S%
2016-17 .913 S%
2018-19 .926 S%
maybe getting away from Weight helped him?

So the coach influenced the performance of his goalie? Or is it that we can't judge Weight's coaching due to poor goalie performance?

 

[deadhead]

Weight was horrible, deep sixed the Islanders. They were a playoff team before him and after him.
Doesn't mean Trotz hasn't done a good job, but it's not like the Islanders were bottom feeders.

The Flyers haven't struggled b/c of coaching, they've struggled because they haven't fielded deep talented teams with good goalies for almost a decade. It's not surprising they've been beat in the playoffs by better teams, b/c any team they faced was much better.

In 2015-16 the top six forwards were nothing special:
Giroux 15-23 38 ES
Simmonds 19-20 39
Schenn 11-22 33
Voracek 10-22 32
Couts 9-22 31
Raffl 12-17 29
Read 9-10 19
Laughton 7-14 21
PP was slightly above league average, the PK slightly below
The goaltenders were good but not elite.

When Berube made the playoffs in 2013-14 with 94 points, after Lavi failed with the same team, they weren't very talented:
Giroux 21-28 49
Voracek 15-24 39
Simmonds 14-22 36
Read 18-16 34
Hartnell 11-21 32
Schenn 16-16 32
Couts 12-19 31
Vinnie 12-12 24
Raffl 9-13 22
D: Coburn, Streit, Kimmo, Grossman, Mezaros/Gustafsson, L Schenn
Goalies .909 v LA .911
PP, PK were both above average