Post-Game Talk: #44 | Flyers at Blues | January 15, 2024 | Flyers win 4-2

Flyerfan4life

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We replaced our GM with someone from the old regime, trained by them! The old guy's intern! The old regime is the new regime! I positively think that's great though. Look at that continuity! Look at the steady employment! It's good for the economy.
you can see why its easy for this Org. to never change.

even when they dont change but say they are people eat it up..

its just more of the same from a guy in a different suit.

i honestly believe this Org. is incapable of change. they truely believe the entire Org. is tied to its past forever.
 

Beef Invictus

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Dec 21, 2009
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Does Briere not have his own brain independent of Chuck Fletcher’s? Was not aware that Fletcher created an avatar designed to look and talk like Danny Briere but carry out Fletcher’s every last thought. That’s pretty nifty, though I would have picked someone a little better looking, tbh.

Thank you for this strawman argument, I have positively enjoyed how imaginative it is.
 
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VladDrag

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Sure, but Walker isn’t going to get you the elite talent anyway.
True - But he's going to get you a real asset that can be used to either get elite talent, or future flexibility so that you can get elite talent when it's comes in. Second round picks (or better) buy you flexibility.

don’t think it’s strange that the best players are 26 and older. None of those guys took the step to being elite/high impact players until they were ~25. Obviously you wish you could have a franchise player at age 20, but those are very rare pieces. And we might actually have one with Michkov.

I guess I just don’t get what the problem is. You’re right that we need elite young talent, but Michkov and Drysdale are pretty good foundational pieces. And you have to hope Frost, Farabee, Foerster, and Brink continue developing (like Konecny and Sanheim did) so that at least one or two of them can be high impact players at age 25.
So, I would completely disagree with you that none of those players took a step to being elite until 25. Until this season, TK's best season was when he was 22. Couts was putting up awesome seasons basically since his age 22 season as well. It just took the Flyers two more years to actually make him a 1C. They were content with him being a defensive specialist (this is the guy who was a ~100 D-1 player, and touted as a 1OA pick until mono hit). He always had elite potential. Sanheim the same thing. He was putting up awesome seasons in a lesser role basically since he came into the NHL. These players were showing talent/elite levels of play at younger ages, it just took the Flyers forever to put them in their positions.

I like Drysdale, and hope he turns into a legit top pairing D-man, but he has 2 games as a Flyer and 18 over the last two seasons. He's lost a lot of development time, potentially not a problem, but we can't say he's an elite talent right now. The others (apart from Michkov), how much better do we realistically expect them? Frost is pretty much as good as he's going to get - a solid offensive center who can give you ~45-60 points and solid defense; Farabee can be a solid ES scorer, the perfect topline complement player; Jury is still out on Brink and Foerster. FWIW, I think Brink is an x-factor and has 70-point potential in him, if the coach just accept his deficiencies and let him play with offensive players.

Michkov is an awesome talent, and he may end up being a top winger. He's exciting to have, there is no doubt. But the best players in the world are responsible for 4-5 additional wins per year. Currently, the Flyers are projected for ~90 points, give or take. Lets say that all together, with the current roster plus Michkov (and no regression), they get an additional 8 wins per year, 16 points. That gives them ~106 points per season. That's a 5-10 best team in the NHL, that's not good enough for a championship level team. The bottom line is they need for find an additional 10-12 wins per year. Sure, you can pick it up in aggregate, but it's obviously much easier to with raw talent. This doesn't even account for your best players starting to decline. Even if you can find those 10-12 wins per year, it's limited because of the age group of the players. This is why it's important to get talent and have an eye for the future.


EDIT - The projections from Hockeyviz and Money Puck are higher than the on at evolving hockey, around 96 points. But, the point still remains, they need 8-10 wins vs the 10-12 additional wins per year.
 
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VladDrag

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Frost has been jerked around? —> “OMG all the kids are being screwed and this team never gives them a fair shake!!!”
I'm not trying to attack you personally, so please don't take it that way...

Frost is an example of how this team has always operated with non-elite offensive talent. It goes back to Couts (as in my previous example). Same thing happened with TK. In 2019-2020, they played Mark Friedman, a defenseman at left wing instead of David Kase. Kase was coming off a season in the SHL where he was a 1C - they didn't even give him a chance. They played Vorobyov. Olle Lycksell is basically a PPG player in the AHL right now, but gets 5mins of icetime with the Flyers during his call up. I'm not even going to bring up NAK :laugh:

Now, yes the team is playing some younger kids in the NHL, and that's awesome, but lets not pretend that they've turned a developmental corner. You're still seeing guys like Hathaway and Deslauriers in the lineup.
 

deadhead

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Players take a while to develop, and often have to jump a couple tiers.

TK was carried from 19-21 by G & Couts, took a step up at 22, another step last season at 25 when he became a line driver which has continued this season.

Sanheim became a solid starter at 22, taken it up a level this season at 26.

Farabee was a starter at 19, probably would have stepped up last season at 22 the way he has at 23 delayed a year by his injury

Frost has been inconsistent, with a good stretch the second half last year, a shaky start this year, now starting to turn it on, may become a consistent 2C next year at 25.

Only a few elite talents play at that level at 20-21, most top players hit their career peak from 25-30 or so. And many players who are stars early flat line or regress - there's no set career path.
 

BritainStix

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We replaced our GM with someone from the old regime, trained by them! The old guy's intern! The old regime is the new regime! I positively think that's great though. Look at that continuity! Look at the steady employment! It's good for the economy.

Danny Briere didn't play the game as "a flyer", he didn't look like one, he doesn't talk like one. He has already made a solid start to life as a GM with multiple trades and signings. The Poehling signing is turning out to be a successful signing too. He's dealt with the Gauthier situation in the best possible manner IMO. But I know that's hot debate around here.

I tend to judge people on what they do, not what people think they are going to do because of a preconceived bias.
 
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GKJ

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Might want to take your own advice there.

Their going to extend Seeler? So now we are just taking things that might happen as fact?

The Laughton trade rumour was debunked by the actual team he was rumoured to join.

The handling of Frost and Zamula has been poor IMO, but then they are both playing exceptionally well right now. I'm not sure why that has any relation to selling while we are rebuilding though.


Sigh....we're gonna do this shit again? You're literally complaining about something that hasn't even happened yet.

You are aware that we replaced our GM right?
When they re-sign Seeler and continue to not move players Torts likes, it will already have not happened. Briere was here already prior to Fletcher being fired, this was always Comcast's plan, the only thing that's changed is how they've managed to set the bar lower so it's easier to clear under the auspices of calling it a 'rebuild' and expecting nobody in the media to challenge them on it.
 

BritainStix

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When they re-sign Seeler and continue to not move players Torts likes, it will already have not happened. Briere was here already prior to Fletcher being fired, this was always Comcast's plan, the only thing that's changed is how they've managed to set the bar lower so it's easier to clear under the auspices of calling it a 'rebuild' and expecting nobody in the media to challenge them on it.
Well it's pointless arguing until the deadline passes and whatever scenario you have does or doesn't happen.

Personally I think the flyers look to move Seeler, Walker and at least one of Laughton, Atkinson, Ristolainen.

But we shall see.
 

GKJ

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Well it's pointless arguing until the deadline passes and whatever scenario you have does or doesn't happen.

Personally I think the flyers look to move Seeler, Walker and at least one of Laughton, Atkinson, Ristolainen.

But we shall see.
I'll be glad to laud them for rebuilding whenever it is they decide to commit to it.

The reporting all of last summer was that tearing the whole thing down to the studs was what Briere wanted to do, but evidently no one was willing to match his prices other than for Provorov (who went to a team that remains underwater) and now they're too far in to do that.

They have these guys improving, they're not going to send the message to the locker room and fans that they need to buy-in but when it happens they'll ship you out. The smart money thing to do would be to move guys out and have confidence that your coaching staff can continue to either develop or fix whoever you bring in.
 

flyersnorth

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For me it feels like an inadvertent slow rebuild.

It began about 11 years ago even if it was not at all the intention.

Missed the playoffs in 7 of the last 11 years.

Got a #2, #5, #7 x2. Got a bunch in the mid 1st too at #11, #14, #17.

#2 was a colossal bust. #5 didn't want to be a Flyer. The first #7 was traded last summer, the other is stuck in Russia. #11 was a bust.

And #14 is second on the team in points.

It has been an awful decade, and our drafting at the top has been a rollercoaster. But things are looking up because many of the other picks did turn out well. One or possibly two elite players in the system. We're set in goal. We're mostly set on defense. We need a #1C up front.

Looks like things are finally starting to turn the corner after an awfully depressing decade.
 

FlyerNutter

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For me it feels like an inadvertent slow rebuild.

It began about 11 years ago even if it was not at all the intention.

Missed the playoffs in 7 of the last 11 years.

Got a #2, #5, #7 x2. Got a bunch in the mid 1st too at #11, #14, #17.

#2 was a colossal bust. #5 didn't want to be a Flyer. The first #7 was traded last summer, the other is stuck in Russia. #11 was a bust.

And #14 is second on the team in points.

It has been an awful decade, and our drafting at the top has been a rollercoaster. But things are looking up because many of the other picks did turn out well. One or possibly two elite players in the system. We're set in goal. We're mostly set on defense. We need a #1C up front.

Looks like things are finally starting to turn the corner after an awfully depressing decade.

I do wish they could have got better out of York. I haven’t looked at the rest of that class around that range but he’s just… I don’t know. He’s on a cheap deal as his biggest positive, but so vanilla.
 
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Flyerfan4life

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I'll be glad to laud them for rebuilding whenever it is they decide to commit to it.

The reporting all of last summer was that tearing the whole thing down to the studs was what Briere wanted to do, but evidently no one was willing to match his prices other than for Provorov (who went to a team that remains underwater) and now they're too far in to do that.

They have these guys improving, they're not going to send the message to the locker room and fans that they need to buy-in but when it happens they'll ship you out. The smart money thing to do would be to move guys out and have confidence that your coaching staff can continue to either develop or fix whoever you bring in.
ahhh so the ole "we owe it to the lockerroom" to not actualy rebuild trap..

this is why this Org. will never change... every player coming in this season was aware of what the plan was.

the current position in the standings shouldnt change that... but it will. cuz they were never actually commited to rebuilding.
 
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flyersnorth

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I do wish they could have got better out of York. I haven’t looked at the rest of that class around that range but he’s just… I don’t know. He’s on a cheap deal as his biggest positive, but so vanilla.

Yeah, he might develop more offensive upside as he gets older, we'll see. Even if he doesn't he's a valuable player as a second pairing guy.

If our picks turned out to be in the neighbourhood of Makar, Rantanen, MacKinnon, and Landeskog instead of Patrick, Gauthier, Provorov, and Morin, things would be very different. Michkov has the potential to be elite, so there's that.

But, man, what atrocious drafting luck or choices or both.
 

BritainStix

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I do wish they could have got better out of York. I haven’t looked at the rest of that class around that range but he’s just… I don’t know. He’s on a cheap deal as his biggest positive, but so vanilla.
York is well on his way to being a solid #2 defenseman.
 

VladDrag

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I do wish they could have got better out of York. I haven’t looked at the rest of that class around that range but he’s just… I don’t know. He’s on a cheap deal as his biggest positive, but so vanilla.
There are two guys that were selected from 11 to 20 that will very likely be higher impact players than York (Boldy and Harley), and two guys that may or may not have equal impact (Caufield and Newhook). I am not upset with the move back, but even when the moved back, they had Caufield and Harley from which to choose. I wasn't as high on Harley to be honest, but I was higher on Harley than I was York. I like York, but Harley is having a monster season right now.
 

freakydallas13

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When the Flyers have been incompetent for the last decade plus, don't be mad when people assume that incompetence will continue. Briere has said they're going to rebuild, but to date has only moved players Torts didn't like.

And miss me with the "New regime! Give them a chance!" excuse, just because there is someone new in charge doesn't mean anything has changed (see Hextall -> Fletcher).
 
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Beef Invictus

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Danny Briere didn't play the game as "a flyer", he didn't look like one, he doesn't talk like one. He has already made a solid start to life as a GM with multiple trades and signings. The Poehling signing is turning out to be a successful signing too. He's dealt with the Gauthier situation in the best possible manner IMO. But I know that's hot debate around here.

I tend to judge people on what they do, not what people think they are going to do because of a preconceived bias.

I find your ability to ignore the Staal and Hathaway signings to be inspirational. Not to mention the immediate credit Briere got for the Deslauriers idea. And all the other things you've ignored! I strive to be so relentlessly positive and faithful.
 

snoop88

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John Tortorella is gonna win the Jack Adams award and this forums head is gonna explode
 

Henry Miller

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Yeah, he might develop more offensive upside as he gets older, we'll see. Even if he doesn't he's a valuable player as a second pairing guy.

If our picks turned out to be in the neighbourhood of Makar, Rantanen, MacKinnon, and Landeskog instead of Patrick, Gauthier, Provorov, and Morin, things would be very different. Michkov has the potential to be elite, so there's that.

But, man, what atrocious drafting luck or choices or both.
2017 was such a strange draft. It was a 2 horse race by all accounts yet 3, 4, 5 were the best picks. Of course Flyers got the dud when they actually appear to get some luck. Devils got a good player but you’d have to think they’d rather have one of the guys who went from 3-5. Sometimes the draft involves luck
 
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BritainStix

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I find your ability to ignore the Staal and Hathaway signings to be inspirational. Not to mention the immediate credit Briere got for the Deslauriers idea. And all the other things you've ignored! I strive to be so relentlessly positive and faithful.
Hathaway isn't a poor signing at all. He's shown in the last couple of games how good he can be without des ham hands
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
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I've never seen a segment of a fanbase so bitter about a team with a .614 points percentage that's blowing away all expectations.
 

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