Post-Game Talk: #39 | Coyotes at Flyers | January 5, 2023

[deadhead]

There is no "they" right now.

Torts is playing his young forwards big minutes, he moved Hayes to the 3rd line, that sure looks like a HC who is focused on the future.
Fletcher, who knows what he's doing these days.
Haven't heard a peep from the advisors for months, and Scott seems to be collecting a paycheck and working on his golf game.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Sure there is a base, and I don't think anyone argues against that. They have some good players. There's no elite talent in this system or on the team and they don't have the pieces/picks to go get that elite talent. That leaves the only way coming through the draft. Which you are rarely going to get picking outside the top 5.

These moral victories mean nothing. You can build other ways, but this team, as is, cannot. The only way is picking in the top 3.

And by the time this team is competitive again, the good players on this team will be at the end of their careers or long gone anyway.

 

[Beef Invictus]

There is no "they" right now.

Torts is playing his young forwards big minutes, he moved Hayes to the 3rd line, that sure looks like a HC who is focused on the future.
Fletcher, who knows what he's doing these days.
Haven't heard a peep from the advisors for months, and Scott seems to be collecting a paycheck and working on his golf game.

A HC focused on the future wouldn't be cycling Braun and Seeler. He'd be asking for prospects to be developing for the NHL. He's making the best of what he has now. He's focused on the now. If he were so future-focused, he'd have found a way to play Zamula and work him through as well.

Of course Fletcher is doing nothing right now. This is that long period of the season where he does nothing. He's incredibly lazy and always takes the path of least resistance. That's why Braun and Seeler are even here. He might start working again a week or two ahead of the TDL. Other GMs are already poking around, and we know he isn't or we'd have heard about it because this team leaks heavily.

 

[deadhead]

Zamula has done nothing to garner a promotion, he's totally sucked in LHV, a turnover machine.
Whether he's injured, sulking or just not as good as we thought remains to be seen.

Attard is more talented, but needs a lot more time in LHV to improve his decision making.

Hogberg is meh, he's flatlined.

Ginning is the one I'd like to see come up at some point, to see if his LHV performance is a mirage or he's just better suited to NA ice.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Zamula has done nothing to garner a promotion, he's totally sucked in LHV, a turnover machine.
Whether he's injured, sulking or just not as good as we thought remains to be seen.

Attard is more talented, but needs a lot more time in LHV to improve his decision making.

Hogberg is meh, he's flatlined.

Ginning is the one I'd like to see come up at some point, to see if his LHV performance is a mirage or he's just better suited to NA ice.

Sure sounds like a lot of bad development.

Weird, you've assured me the development process is without flaw. Prospects flatlining and regressing says otherwise. It is the norm, though.

Where's that revolving door you insisted Tortorella would order and enforce upon his spineless boss?

 

[Curufinwe]

Oh no, Zamula has " totally sucked" on the Phantoms. Does that mean he has 2 points in 31 games and the worst 5on5 goal against numbers of any dman despite getting sheltered third pairing minutes?

Sorry, I was thinking of Ristolainen on the Flyers.

 

[freakydallas13]

A HC focused on the future wouldn't be cycling Braun and Seeler. He'd be asking for prospects to be developing for the NHL. He's making the best of what he has now. He's focused on the now. If he were so future-focused, he'd have found a way to play Zamula and work him through as well.

Of course Fletcher is doing nothing right now. This is that long period of the season where he does nothing. He's incredibly lazy and always takes the path of least resistance. That's why Braun and Seeler are even here. He might start working again a week or two ahead of the TDL. Other GMs are already poking around, and we know he isn't or we'd have heard about it because this team leaks heavily.

The absolute audacity of people claiming John "I took Zamula out so we could win now" Tortorella is a development coach is equal parts disgusting and pathetic.

 

[Flyer lurker]

A HC focused on the future wouldn't be cycling Braun and Seeler. He'd be asking for prospects to be developing for the NHL. He's making the best of what he has now. He's focused on the now. If he were so future-focused, he'd have found a way to play Zamula and work him through as well.

Of course Fletcher is doing nothing right now. This is that long period of the season where he does nothing. He's incredibly lazy and always takes the path of least resistance. That's why Braun and Seeler are even here. He might start working again a week or two ahead of the TDL. Other GMs are already poking around, and we know he isn't or we'd have heard about it because this team leaks heavily.

The only legit reason you can have for Z and Picard not being up is you think it could wreck their development for being rushed. Otherwise every day on the farm is a complete waste. I am not saying Picard, Z and York will all make it. I am saying you should play at this level and find out. Development of young d-men is just a little more important than wins over Arizona.

Seeler wastes 2 years of time but at least its cheap time unlike ada, fisto etc.

If you get a 3rd for Braun today, you make the trade asap. The only reason for Braun on the team is to play with a young d-man and develop. I didn't need to see Seeler or any other vet paired with Braun. Waste of time and space.

 

[captainpaxil]

Who knew Frost and zac lacks attack wouldn't work?

He's still out hustled by macewen on a regular basis which should be a huge red flag for a guy who has had to learn to play at pace since he was drafted. Macewen made space for frost earlier in the year which I said back then it would be interesting to see how he works with a legit power forward which this team lacks.

 

[Beef Invictus]

He's still out hustled by macewen on a regular basis which should be a huge red flag for a guy who has had to learn to play at pace since he was drafted. Macewen made space for frost earlier in the year which I said back then it would be interesting to see how he works with a legit power forward which this team lacks.

MacEwen is not outhustling or outworking Frost. Or really anyone but Hayes. He just happens to look like he's trying harder because he's so inefficient. Flailing around more does not mean harder working. Frost can actually win his puck and possession battles in ways MacEwen does not. He just doesn't look like a try-hard as he does it. The empty, pointless, losing churning of MacEwen is not impressive or a positive. He could be readily replaced and it would make the team immediately better.

 

[freakydallas13]

Macewen a legit power forward

 

[Strawberry Fields]

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

A HC focused on the future wouldn't be cycling Braun and Seeler. He'd be asking for prospects to be developing for the NHL. He's making the best of what he has now. He's focused on the now. If he were so future-focused, he'd have found a way to play Zamula and work him through as well.

Of course Fletcher is doing nothing right now. This is that long period of the season where he does nothing. He's incredibly lazy and always takes the path of least resistance. That's why Braun and Seeler are even here. He might start working again a week or two ahead of the TDL. Other GMs are already poking around, and we know he isn't or we'd have heard about it because this team leaks heavily.

Remember that time Chuck fired his coach in season, and said shortly after that they weren't looking for a replacement yet? Then around the end of the season said the same thing. Then hired someone else to do it. That was fun.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Remember that time Chuck fired his coach in season, and said shortly after that they weren't looking for a replacement yet? Then around the end of the season said the same thing. Then hired someone else to do it. That was fun.

Least

Effort

Possible.


They're always openly admitting to not doing urgent work and kicking the can down the road.

 

[Magua]

MacEwen has as much power as an Amish farm. Being late to spots and hitting guys after the puck is gone does not a power forward make. Frost is a wildly better forechecker than Mr. Hustle and Bustle.

 

[flyersnorth]

Boston had Wheeler and Seguin, and traded them for peanuts.
Meanwhile, the "perfection line" - Bergeron #45, Marchand #71, Pastrnak #25. and McAvoy #14.
When they won in 2011, top scorers were Lucic #50, Krejci #63, Bergeron, Horton (T, 1st, 3rd), Recchi (T), Chara (FA), Marchand.

It's harder without an elite player, but you can't suspend your franchise for two decades, hoping you land McDavid instead of Nico.
And has McDavid made it to the SC Finals yet? Last year was first year past the first round.
Toronto has a number of elite players and can't get out of the first round.

Focus on building a team and hope the Hockey Gods smile upon you.
But building a team doesn't mean short-term patches to make the playoffs, rather, a long-term strategy to add assets and build quality depth - enough that you may be able to trade for a missing piece.

I'm not saying it's impossible - just that teams without top 5 picks tend to be the exception.

That's fine when an organization has competent people in place. Even in that scenario, it's still uncommon. But the Flyers do not have competent people in place.

We're going through our decade of futility, and the top 5 picks we have to show for it are Nolan Patrick and Cutter Gauthier.

There is absolutely some degree of luck involved. The challenge, though, is that the Flyers - under Fletcher especially - have not put luck on their side.

It is the most frustrating era of Flyers hockey I have ever witnessed, and it's getting old at this point.

I do see positivity with some of the established picks and young prospects. But I also see a large talent gap between our top players and other teams' top players.

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

MacEwen has as much power as an Amish farm. Being late to spots and hitting guys after the puck is gone does not a power forward make. Frost is a wildly better forechecker than Mr. Hustle and Bustle.

You ever wrestle an Amish man? This is rhetorical.

 

[freakydallas13]

I'm not saying it's impossible - just that teams without top 5 picks tend to be the exception.

That's fine when an organization has competent people in place. Even in that scenario, it's still uncommon. But the Flyers do not have competent people in place.

We're going through our decade of futility, and the top 5 picks we have to show for it are Nolan Patrick and Cutter Gauthier.

There is absolutely some degree of luck involved. The challenge, though, is that the Flyers - under Fletcher especially - have not put luck on their side.

It is the most frustrating era of Flyers hockey I have ever witnessed, and it's getting old at this point.

I do see positivity with some of the established picks and young prospects. But I also see a large talent gap between our top players and other teams' top players.

Love the irony of contrarians poo-pooing trying to rebuild through the draft because of a low percentage of winning the first overall, but charging straight ahead with the idea that this team can be competitive without drafting near the top of the draft. Which has an even lower percentage of happening.

 

[Magua]

“Tanking” is a bullshit loaded word anyway. People who want their franchise to churn out participation trophies, with some radically misplaced sense of pride, use the word “tanking” as a pejorative. Every player tries to win individual games; sometimes rosters just aren’t good enough. “Rebuild” sounds too complicated and nuanced.

Honest question: how many of the worst handful of teams are actively hurting the development of young core players? I’d argue, at the very most, 1. And they’re not even last place. But even then, Colorado’s historically bad year in 16-17 was with their entire young forward core, and a rookie coach who people expected to be fired in Bednar. The Devils young core emerged from the muck just fine.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The next games are the 8th and 9th for anyone wondering.

 

[Beef Invictus]

“Tanking” is a bullshit loaded word anyway. People who want their franchise to churn out participation trophies, with some radically misplaced sense of pride, use the word “tanking” as a pejorative. Every player tries to win individual games; sometimes rosters just aren’t good enough. “Rebuild” sounds too complicated and nuanced.

Honest question: how many of the worst handful of teams are actively hurting the development of young core players? I’d argue, at the very most, 1. And they’re not even last place. But even then, Colorado’s historically bad year in 16-17 was with their entire young forward core, and a rookie coach who people expected to be fired in Bednar. The Devils young core emerged from the muck just fine.

Here we sit, apparently unable to slot anyone into the 4th line because Brown is playing.

We've gone from "Tortorella would never allow Brown to block any youth" to an entire line being unavailable for development and acclimation because of his presence. And that's defended. Of course, the rest of us already knew the 4th line wouldn't be available because Fletcher views that as a specific role unsuited to most prospects.

 

[deadhead]

The Avs and Devils took a decade.

Tanking isn't a bull shit loaded word, it's an active strategy to lose as many games as possible.
Rebuilding is a process whereby you focus on adding assets over the long-run, eschewing short-run tactics to be temporarily competitive in favor of moves that improve the team over the long haul.

Now a rebuild may result in a bad season or two with the consequent high draft pick, but drafting high isn't the goal, getting young assets is the goal.

So a tanking team dumps players without regard to return in order to lose, a rebuilding team moves out veterans to maximize the return.

I'm n favor of rebuilding, but not tanking.
I would trade JVR at the TDL, and Hayes and Provorov this summer.
I would extend TK if he shows over a couple years that his current play has become his norm.
I wouid not use assets to dump Risto, I would not use cap room to sign veterans close to or over 30.

Here we sit, apparently unable to slot anyone into the 4th line because Brown is playing.

We've gone from "Tortorella would never allow Brown to block any youth" to an entire line being unavailable for development and acclimation because of his presence. And that's defended. Of course, the rest of us already knew the 4th line wouldn't be available because Fletcher views that as a specific role unsuited to most prospects.

Right, because Laczynski is being blocked. Oh, he's on IR?
Desnoyers should be rushed to the NHL b/c Beef doesn't want to watch Brown.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The Avs and Devils took a decade.

Tanking isn't a bull shit loaded word, it's an active strategy to lose as many games as possible.
Rebuilding is a process whereby you focus on adding assets over the long-run, eschewing short-run tactics to be temporarily competitive in favor of moves that improve the team over the long haul.

Now a rebuild may result in a bad season or two with the consequent high draft pick, but drafting high isn't the goal, getting young assets is the goal.

So a tanking team dumps players without regard to return in order to lose, a rebuilding team moves out veterans to maximize the return.

I'm n favor of rebuilding, but not tanking.
I would trade JVR at the TDL, and Hayes and Provorov this summer.
I would extend TK if he shows over a couple years that his current play has become his norm.
I wouid not use assets to dump Risto, I would not use cap room to sign veterans close to or over 30.


Right, because Laczynski is being blocked. Oh, he's on IR?
Desnoyers should be rushed to the NHL b/c Beef doesn't want to watch Brown.

Newsflash: Fletcher has crashed this team so hard into the muck that by the time they're competitive again, everyone who is good now will be retired or a husk of themselves. It's gonna take well more than the decade it has already taken. Especially because a successful rebuild will not begin until the entire Clarke management tree is thrown out of the office with damned memories.

You were insisting we'd be seeing Desnoyers (along with a whole slew of other prospects, at the order of Tortorella) by now so it's laughable to see you mocking the concept. IT WAS YOUR IDEA. Revolving door, ring any bells?

 

[deadhead]

It's a long season.

Go back and look at my posts analyzing what Torts did in CBJ, elevated a few young players each year either as starters or into bigger roles as starters, and gave other prospects cameos toward the end of the season to prepare them to challenge for starting jobs next season.

What Torts DIDN'T do was play a lot of young players at once, he gradually worked them in over a few years.
He started with a core of veterans who he moved out over a couple seasons, keeping the ones he felt were a good fit.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's a long season.

Go back and look at my posts analyzing what Torts did in CBJ, elevated a few young players each year either as starters or into bigger roles as starters, and gave other prospects cameos toward the end of the season to prepare them to challenge for starting jobs next season.

What Torts DIDN'T do was play a lot of young players at once, he gradually worked them in over a few years.
He started with a core of veterans who he moved out over a couple seasons, keeping the ones he felt were a good fit.

Oh so there wasn't a revolving door? Then why did you conclude there would be? Your analysis was that he was intent on a rebuild and would be ordering Fletcher to let him play a bunch of youth. As much as possible. And it was gonna be all about evaluating and developing them.

This is one of your more legendary backpedals, especially considering how vehemently you argued this at length for months. Your assumed start-of-season lineups had more prospects in them than we have now, and that was before the real process was supposed to start. Hilarious stuff, this.