Post-Game Talk: #39 | Coyotes at Flyers | January 5, 2023

[flyersnorth]

I don't think anyone has endorsed the sequence of events that lead to Ghost leaving and Risto arriving.
But the incessant puffing of Ghost deserves a push back, he was bad last night, I counted 3 turnovers in the first 30 minutes . . .
Meanwhile, TDA is erratic as hell, but more talented offensively, "if he only had a brain . . ."

We had no chance of finishing in the bottom three, we're just not that putrid. As far as Bedard, whether we finish 5th or 7th won't make much difference. As long as we win b/c young players are stepping up, I'm fine - I just don't want to win b/c a bunch of veterans have career years.

Oh yeah, player development, playing 5 guys 25 and under in the top 6? Allison getting steady minutes since he got healthy. York in the top 4 after he turned his season around in LHV. That's a solid core of players, they just need more. As long as they pick in the top 15 the next couple years, they should add two more solid starters.

This is not a PO team, they're not even a .500 team (W/L+OT), but they're not awful like last season.

They need to move JVR at the TDL and Hayes this summer, for one thing, Couts and Atkinson will probably return next year and that's all the veterans they need, for another, they've gotten faster but can still use more speed. A deal for Provorov should also be explored. Don't have to burn the house down, but some major remodeling is in order.

What you’re describing is a recipe for building a team and hoping it can win despite not having top 5 picks.

In the past 15 years, only 2008 Detroit and the 2019 Blues did not have a top 5 pick.

Do you believe this organization has the collective capacity to be an exception? A decade’s worth of evidence tells me this is a resounding no.

“This [2022 Stanley Cup] final is an example for the league’s other 30 teams just how important it is to not swing and miss in the top five of the draft.”

Stanley Cup Final shows value of hitting on top draft picks

The Lightning and Avalanche started from the bottom, and now they’re here in the Stanley Cup Final, in large part to nailing high picks.

nhl.nbcsports.com

The Flyers completely whiffed on Nolan Patrick. How about Cutter Gauthier? I was unimpressed by his play in the tournament. You know who did impress? Jiricek. So are the Flyers about to whiff on another top 5 pick? Gauthier has been projected as a middle six and bottom six player in half a dozen draft projections. That’s not at all promising.

So, no, I do not believe the Flyers can ever win a Stanley Cup with the way they have been running things the past decade, and getting a few “top 15”picks isn’t going to change that. It’s exactly the problem.

Mediocrity.

 

[VladDrag]

There are always outliers of some sort. I don't disagree to an extent he was with some slop players. At some point the excuses and whatever else has to be curbed just a little. Lets see him produce the rest of the way as he is getting favorable minutes and line mates. Been that way for a while now. The Flyers desperately need him to step up and be piece to move forward with. Preferably 2nd line center. We shall see how it shakes out.

I agree for the most part. I've been a big supporter of Frost for awhile, but I have also recognized that he was way too passive early in the season. He looks like a different player over the last 20 games or so. We'll see if he can continue playing this way, or if he reverts back. It's clear his confidence is very high right now.

 

[Flyer lurker]

Frost and farabee showed chemistry whodathunkit

Who knew Frost and zac lacks attack wouldn't work?

 

[04hockey]

Frost has worked his way into a bigger role, partially by improved play off the puck, partially by default.

This season IS about development, hopefully Frost can grow into a 2C role, and Cates a solid 3C/2LW.

could not have said it better ..... chemistry takes time .....

 

[Ironmanrulez]

I agree for the most part. I've been a big supporter of Frost for awhile, but I have also recognized that he was way too passive early in the season. He looks like a different player over the last 20 games or so. We'll see if he can continue playing this way, or if he reverts back. It's clear his confidence is very high right now.

I thinks it normal for a young player to have confidence issues after going through this shit franchise and shit development with shit coaches. After the toilette comments of torts he said f*** it and played his game. Same with York. Same with Ghost back in the day. If you play your game and ignore this franchise and all they teach you, you succeed in this league!


f*** THIS FRANCHISE

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Lucky for us that finishing seventh worst yields pretty much the same odds as finishing with the worst record… or so I’m told.

Did @Striiker tell you that? I hear he is as good math as Hayes is at hockey.

 

[Striiker]

Did @Striiker tell you that? I hear he is as good math as Hayes is at hockey.

3 to 0

our game.

 

[freakydallas13]

yeah tell that all the teams that made it deeper in the playoffs without top elite talent.

Just admit you are happy with this team being a playoff tweener and and easy first round exit every year, and that you don't need anything more than that.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

What you’re describing is a recipe for building a team and hoping it can win despite not having top 5 picks.

In the past 15 years, only 2008 Detroit and the 2019 Blues did not have a top 5 pick.

Do you believe this organization has the collective capacity to be an exception? A decade’s worth of evidence tells me this is a resounding no.

“This [2022 Stanley Cup] final is an example for the league’s other 30 teams just how important it is to not swing and miss in the top five of the draft.”

Stanley Cup Final shows value of hitting on top draft picks

The Lightning and Avalanche started from the bottom, and now they’re here in the Stanley Cup Final, in large part to nailing high picks.

nhl.nbcsports.com

The Flyers completely whiffed on Nolan Patrick. How about Cutter Gauthier? I was unimpressed by his play in the tournament. You know who did impress? Jiricek. So are the Flyers about to whiff on another top 5 pick? Gauthier has been projected as a middle six and bottom six player in half a dozen draft projections. That’s not at all promising.

So, no, I do not believe the Flyers can ever win a Stanley Cup with the way they have been running things the past decade, and getting a few “top 15”picks isn’t going to change that. It’s exactly the problem.

Mediocrity.

Tbf I stated I wanted 1 of 2 rhd defensmen in that draft and a certain someone said cutter was the right pick because he read from the beats that he's a Jeff Carter clone lol

 

[deadhead]

What you’re describing is a recipe for building a team and hoping it can win despite not having top 5 picks.

In the past 15 years, only 2008 Detroit and the 2019 Blues did not have a top 5 pick.

Do you believe this organization has the collective capacity to be an exception? A decade’s worth of evidence tells me this is a resounding no.

“This [2022 Stanley Cup] final is an example for the league’s other 30 teams just how important it is to not swing and miss in the top five of the draft.”

Stanley Cup Final shows value of hitting on top draft picks

The Lightning and Avalanche started from the bottom, and now they’re here in the Stanley Cup Final, in large part to nailing high picks.

nhl.nbcsports.com

The Flyers completely whiffed on Nolan Patrick. How about Cutter Gauthier? I was unimpressed by his play in the tournament. You know who did impress? Jiricek. So are the Flyers about to whiff on another top 5 pick? Gauthier has been projected as a middle six and bottom six player in half a dozen draft projections. That’s not at all promising.

So, no, I do not believe the Flyers can ever win a Stanley Cup with the way they have been running things the past decade, and getting a few “top 15”picks isn’t going to change that. It’s exactly the problem.

Mediocrity.

Boston had Wheeler and Seguin, and traded them for peanuts.
Meanwhile, the "perfection line" - Bergeron #45, Marchand #71, Pastrnak #25. and McAvoy #14.
When they won in 2011, top scorers were Lucic #50, Krejci #63, Bergeron, Horton (T, 1st, 3rd), Recchi (T), Chara (FA), Marchand.

It's harder without an elite player, but you can't suspend your franchise for two decades, hoping you land McDavid instead of Nico.
And has McDavid made it to the SC Finals yet? Last year was first year past the first round.
Toronto has a number of elite players and can't get out of the first round.

Focus on building a team and hope the Hockey Gods smile upon you.
But building a team doesn't mean short-term patches to make the playoffs, rather, a long-term strategy to add assets and build quality depth - enough that you may be able to trade for a missing piece.

 

[tucson83]

Just admit you are happy with this team being a playoff tweener and and easy first round exit every year, and that you don't need anything more than that.

so you are much happier that we tear the whole team down for bedard and if we dont get him then what? you are miserable now and if we dont get bedard, how are you going to feel watching a product full of 19 and 20 year old rookies and no talent at all and losing every year?

seems like all you care about is bedard and nothing else, we can crap the bed every year as long as we have him and yet, he can pull an eichel and left with nothing. seems like to you losing doesnt matter to these players, it matters alot.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

so you are much happier that we tear the whole team down for bedard and if we dont get him then what? you are miserable now and if we dont get bedard, how are you going to feel watching a product full of 19 and 20 year old rookies and no talent at all and losing every year?

seems like all you care about is bedard and nothing else, we can crap the bed every year as long as we have him and yet, he can pull an eichel and left with nothing. seems like to you losing doesnt matter to these players, it matters alot.

The Flyers are currently a team with no talent and losing every year. Do YOU want to continue on that path?

 

[freakydallas13]

so you are much happier that we tear the whole team down for bedard and if we dont get him then what? you are miserable now and if we dont get bedard, how are you going to feel watching a product full of 19 and 20 year old rookies and no talent at all and losing every year?

seems like all you care about is bedard and nothing else, we can crap the bed every year as long as we have him and yet, he can pull an eichel and left with nothing. seems like to you losing doesnt matter to these players, it matters alot.

I haven't mentioned Bedard once, champ. I just want this team to draft elite talent, which doesn't mean they draft 1OA or bust, just a heads up. You can find elite players much more easily in the top 5 than you can anywhere else.

But keep stroking that even lower percentage this team will be anything but a doormat without elite talent. It works for no one else, but surely it will work for the Flyers.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Boston had Wheeler and Seguin, and traded them for peanuts.
Meanwhile, the "perfection line" - Bergeron #45, Marchand #71, Pastrnak #25. and McAvoy #14.
When they won in 2011, top scorers were Lucic #50, Krejci #63, Bergeron, Horton (T, 1st, 3rd), Recchi (T), Chara (FA), Marchand.

It's harder without an elite player, but you can't suspend your franchise for two decades, hoping you land McDavid instead of Nico.
And has McDavid made it to the SC Finals yet? Last year was first year past the first round.
Toronto has a number of elite players and can't get out of the first round.

Focus on building a team and hope the Hockey Gods smile upon you.
But building a team doesn't mean short-term patches to make the playoffs, rather, a long-term strategy to add assets and build quality depth - enough that you may be able to trade for a missing piece.

It's the 2nd time that McDavid has made it past the first round.

I mean if you want to continue to use a small sample size to discount the Maple Leafs you're entitled to it's just not a good way to look at teams.

Once again, no one is asking for the Flyers to "suspend" their franchise for two decades. A long term strategy is getting the stars and the talent and building around them. Hoping to do it the other way around is just going to result in more mediocrity.

 

[FlyerNutter]

People don’t care about success. Neither does the franchise.

It cares more about protecting a history, and image.

It’s all it’s about.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I don’t trade TK. He could get a great return. But Chuck is too goddamn stupid to get max value.

 

[flyers0909]

Boston had Wheeler and Seguin, and traded them for peanuts.
Meanwhile, the "perfection line" - Bergeron #45, Marchand #71, Pastrnak #25. and McAvoy #14.
When they won in 2011, top scorers were Lucic #50, Krejci #63, Bergeron, Horton (T, 1st, 3rd), Recchi (T), Chara (FA), Marchand.

It's harder without an elite player, but you can't suspend your franchise for two decades, hoping you land McDavid instead of Nico.
And has McDavid made it to the SC Finals yet? Last year was first year past the first round.
Toronto has a number of elite players and can't get out of the first round.

Focus on building a team and hope the Hockey Gods smile upon you.
But building a team doesn't mean short-term patches to make the playoffs, rather, a long-term strategy to add assets and build quality depth - enough that you may be able to trade for a missing piece.

Weird, almost like accumulating 2nd/3rd round picks matter.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I don't think anyone has endorsed the sequence of events that lead to Ghost leaving and Risto arriving.
But the incessant puffing of Ghost deserves a push back, he was bad last night, I counted 3 turnovers in the first 30 minutes . . .
Meanwhile, TDA is erratic as hell, but more talented offensively, "if he only had a brain . . ."

We had no chance of finishing in the bottom three, we're just not that putrid. As far as Bedard, whether we finish 5th or 7th won't make much difference. As long as we win b/c young players are stepping up, I'm fine - I just don't want to win b/c a bunch of veterans have career years.

Oh yeah, player development, playing 5 guys 25 and under in the top 6? Allison getting steady minutes since he got healthy. York in the top 4 after he turned his season around in LHV. That's a solid core of players, they just need more. As long as they pick in the top 15 the next couple years, they should add two more solid starters.

This is not a PO team, they're not even a .500 team (W/L+OT), but they're not awful like last season.

They need to move JVR at the TDL and Hayes this summer, for one thing, Couts and Atkinson will probably return next year and that's all the veterans they need, for another, they've gotten faster but can still use more speed. A deal for Provorov should also be explored. Don't have to burn the house down, but some major remodeling is in order.

A quick scan of the threads covering those events indicates you endorsed it.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Frost has worked his way into a bigger role, partially by improved play off the puck, partially by default.
He's not our 2nd or 3rd best offensive player right now, TK, Hayes, Farabee, JVR are all better.

Farabee is struggling, yet still scoring at a high pace, 2.37 pp/60 for the season. Imagine if he had an offseason to get stronger . . .
Hayes is racking up points with two limited offensive linemates in Laughton and Allison.
JVR is a proven top 6 winger.

This season IS about development, hopefully Frost can grow into a 2C role, and Cates a solid 3C/2LW.

This is nonsense. This is who he has been for a while. All he needed was for enough injuries to happen where they had to stop jerking him around and just let him be secure enough to play his game. People have been saying this for a very, very long time.

It's yet another situation in a long list of situation where random dorks on the internet know better than the idiots running the team.

You do not need to defend every single thing they do.

 

[deadhead]

A quick scan of the threads covering those events indicates you endorsed it.

I didn't like the Risto trade or the extension.

Didn't care about Ghost b/c I don't think he's a "playoff performer." 16 games, 0 goals, 1 assist at ES. [exclude the round robin game]
And those were his "prime" years.
If you're building a playoff team he's not a guy you project as a major piece.

They paid the going rate to dump Ghost, which was inevitable with AV as HC.
Fletcher paid less to dump two years of Ghost at $4.5M than Zito did to dump Stralman at 1yr/$5M.

Now you could argue they should have rebuilt/reloaded after 2020-21, kept Ghost to flip him if possible, but certainly not as a piece going forward. But we know the FO (Scott, Holmgren, Clarke, et al) would never accept rebuilding at that time.

 

[tucson83]

Boston had Wheeler and Seguin, and traded them for peanuts.
Meanwhile, the "perfection line" - Bergeron #45, Marchand #71, Pastrnak #25. and McAvoy #14.
When they won in 2011, top scorers were Lucic #50, Krejci #63, Bergeron, Horton (T, 1st, 3rd), Recchi (T), Chara (FA), Marchand.

It's harder without an elite player, but you can't suspend your franchise for two decades, hoping you land McDavid instead of Nico.
And has McDavid made it to the SC Finals yet? Last year was first year past the first round.
Toronto has a number of elite players and can't get out of the first round.

Focus on building a team and hope the Hockey Gods smile upon you.
But building a team doesn't mean short-term patches to make the playoffs, rather, a long-term strategy to add assets and build quality depth - enough that you may be able to trade for a missing piece.

yeah i mean it wasnt stamkos and kuckerov killing it in the playoffs, it was the players that werent in the top 5, that's why you need depth to win it and not rely on one guy because if it was bedard doing it all, he gets shut down, who else steps up? it's one round knock out.

that's why the oilers and maple leafs are struggling to make it out of the first round because its focused on matthews, mcdavid, tavares, and draisaitl, shut those guys down and no one else steps up, you are easily knocked out.

that's why other teams are making out of the first round more often than those teams because they are deep, not built on one or two players.

 

[Striiker]

The Flyers are currently a team with no talent and losing every year. Do YOU want to continue on that path?

I haven't mentioned Bedard once, champ. I just want this team to draft elite talent, which doesn't mean they draft 1OA or bust, just a heads up. You can find elite players much more easily in the top 5 than you can anywhere else.

But keep stroking that even lower percentage this team will be anything but a doormat without elite talent. It works for no one else, but surely it will work for the Flyers.

You guys realize that’s an AI, right?

 

[Beef Invictus]

I didn't like the Risto trade or the extension.

Didn't care about Ghost b/c I don't think he's a "playoff performer." 16 games, 0 goals, 1 assist at ES. [exclude the round robin game]
And those were his "prime" years.
If you're building a playoff team he's not a guy you project as a major piece.

They paid the going rate to dump Ghost, which was inevitable with AV as HC.
Fletcher paid less to dump two years of Ghost at $4.5M than Zito did to dump Stralman at 1yr/$5M.

Now you could argue they should have rebuilt/reloaded after 2020-21, kept Ghost to flip him if possible, but certainly not as a piece going forward. But we know the FO (Scott, Holmgren, Clarke, et al) would never accept rebuilding at that time.

Yet you've spent many, many posts justifying them.

You've spent a ton of time defending the woeful handling of Ghost. You celebrated bringing in Yandle because Ghost is, as you described him, a 7D. Your playoff stat cherrypicking was already debunked.

Are you ready to admit you were wrong about all of this?

 

[deadhead]

This is nonsense. This is who he has been for a while. All he needed was for enough injuries to happen where they had to stop jerking him around and just let him be secure enough to play his game. People have been saying this for a very, very long time.

It's yet another situation in a long list of situation where random dorks on the internet know better than the idiots running the team.

You do not need to defend every single thing they do.

Frost hasn't shown crap for three years, wasn't ready in 2019-20, injured in 2020-21, meh last season.
He wasn't even outstanding in the AHL. At 22 he should have dominated AHL play.

Funny how the same people who ragged on Tippett keep making excuses for Frost.

Both are in the same boat, talented players who are slow developers, both are playing better, both need to have strong second halves to be in the Flyers' future plans.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Frost hasn't shown crap for three years, wasn't ready in 2019-20, injured in 2020-21, meh last season.
He wasn't even outstanding in the AHL. At 22 he should have dominated AHL play.

Funny how the same people who ragged on Tippett keep making excuses for Frost.

Both are in the same boat, talented players who are slow developers, both are playing better, both need to have strong second halves to be in the Flyers' future plans.

If you think he hasn't shown crap you don't know what you're looking at.

Which does vibe with thinking Ghost is nothing more than a #7 Dman, actually. Or believing a huge chunk of the NHL is fungible. Or believing slapshots have no utility anymore.