2nd Cup affect Ovechkin's legacy/ all-time ranking?

[JasonRoseEh]

Crosby, Beliveau, Hull, Richard, and Harvey are the next group after the big four and then OV starts to enter the mix. He's not top 5.

None of the bolded have a case over Ovechkin.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

There's no denying the goal scoring prowess. However, there is a pungent smell of failure when you consider the lack of cups. At the end of the day, does an entertaining one trick pony provide value in the W/L column? One advancement past the 2nd round provides an answer to that question.

If you say one trick pony in relation to Ovechkin you automatically void everything else in your statement. It's so laughably stupid and false to even put this forward at this point in terms of the player he has been during his career. Do better man, stop being a homer.

 

[DrewGl]

That Cup run was special. Went through Cbus, Pitt and Tampa. All tough teams that year. Ovi is going down as one of the greatest. Lots of greats never got a Cup. His legacy will be great. The league will miss him when he hangs them up.

 

[Phil68]

A good argument for OV over Jagr starts with All-star team finishes
Jagr 7x 1st, 1x 2nd
OV 8x 1st, 4x 2nd, 3x 3rd

Their best three seasons are similar (Jagr has way more points, Ovechkin has way more goals), but there is no doubt that if one looks at their best 5 or best 7 seasons, Jagr is ahead of Ovechkin.

The issue is, Jagr has little outside of his best 8 seasons. Ovechkin has been in the talk for the best LW pretty much every season (well, probably this season injuries finally slowed him down, but that's his 16th season already). In this regard, Ovechkin is like Bourque, who was top5 in Norris voting almost his whole career, and that brings Bourque ahead of defensemen with probably higher peak. Ovechkin is doing a similar thing on LW.

Let me also do the comparison for the three best consecutive seasons.
In 2007-2010, OV led #10 in points by an average of 27% and led #10 in goals by an average of 50%.
In 1998-2001, Jagr led #10 in points by an average of 33% and led #10 in goals by an average of 20%.

Let's transform it in the 2018/19 (last full season) currency: in 2018/19, #10 in points was at 96 points, #10 in goals was 41 goals.
Peak Ovechkin projects into 41*1.5=60 goal, 96*1.27=122 point guy, peak Jagr - into 41*1.2=48 goal, 96*1.33=128 point guy.
This is very, very close, and I would actually take the 60-goal guy.

MMMM Prime Jagr's Domination over NHL was Greztky like or Mario. Prime Ovi did not Dominate over Crosby or Malkin. That seperation Between the two Penguin Elite is not a clear cut separation. Honestly due to Injuries Ovi Never out produce Crosby other then his rookie season.. Prime Jagr when Lemieux had his first retirement, Jagr was McDavid in terms of.. There is McDavid, and then the rest of the league. Ovi has never been superior to Crosby or Malkin other than injury seasons for the Penguins elites

 

[filinski77]

MMMM Prime Jagr's Domination over NHL was Greztky like or Mario. Prime Ovi did not Dominate over Crosby or Malkin. That seperation Between the two Penguin Elite is not a clear cut separation. Honestly due to Injuries Ovi Never out produce Crosby other then his rookie season.. Prime Jagr when Lemieux had his first retirement, Jagr was McDavid in terms of.. There is McDavid, and then the rest of the league. Ovi has never been superior to Crosby or Malkin other than injury seasons for the Penguins elites

Peak Ovechkin won 3 straight Pearsons (2 Harts), and lead the league in points/gp and goals/gp for 3 straight years.

Jagr's 4 year peak (the 4 straight Ross's) yielded him 1 Hart, 2 Pearsons, and was only close to being the top goalscorer 1 of those 4 years.

To act like that domination isn't the same is just silly.

 

[DrDangles]

I don't think a second cup moves the needle much for him. He's the best goal scorer of all time, and already in the top 10. The top 4 of Gretz, Mario, Howe, and Orr is basically indisputable. 5-10 is purely subjective and up for debate, but to leave Ovi out of the top 10 at this point is just disingenuous.

 

[evolutionbaby]

Is he above Yzerman and Sakic? I certainly do not think so.

 

[MadLuke]

Nobody can (Or is) questioning the fact he will be a 1st Ballot HOFer

Ed Belfour, Scott Stevens, Joe Mullen, Savard, Modano, Gartner, Larry Murphy were first ballot hhofer, that not a particularly high bar (when starting to talk about certain top 30 players of all time a la OV, that something top 200-250 type get), no one doubt that 3 year's after official retirement Ovechkin get in and regardless of when he does it (there will not have 3-4 other players ahead of him retiring at the same time making that complicated)

 

[edog37]

He's a top five player in NHL history imo.

Cups aren't everything.

Orr
Gretzky
Mario
Howe
Ovi

Ovechkin isn't even top 10. Top 15 yes, no way Top 5.

Nobody can (Or is) questioning the fact he will be a 1st Ballot HOFer.

Correct?

He's a generational star who has made the league better. And more importantly turned Washington into a city that cares about the Caps. They are a premiere franchise.

I don't think anyone will deny he'll be a first ballot guy & yes he made the Caps more relevant. And as much as I detest him as a player, the rivalry with Sid was epic. Still, he is no where near Top 5.

 

[ujju2]

Ovechkin isn't even top 10. Top 15 yes, no way Top 5.


I don't think anyone will deny he'll be a first ballot guy & yes he made the Caps more relevant. And as much as I detest him as a player, the rivalry with Sid was epic. Still, he is no where near Top 5.

Easily top 10. And if he breaks Gretzky's goals record he will have a case for top-5, though he probably ends up 6-7 or something.

 

[ujju2]

Is he above Yzerman and Sakic? I certainly do not think so.

I certainly do think so. In fact I'd say there's no comparison, Ovi is easily above both of those guys.

 

[edog37]

Easily top 10. And if he breaks Gretzky's goals record he will have a case for top-5, though he probably ends up 6-7 or something.

If he is Top 10, it would be 10. I'm not putting him ahead of Beliveau, Sakic, Yzerman, or Jagr.

 

[edog37]

I certainly do think so. In fact I'd say there's no comparison, Ovi is easily above both of those guys.

using what metric? The aforementioned led their teams to multiple Cups & were generational players in their own right. Ovechkin had one good post season regardless of how many goals he ends up scoring. The one standard amongst the current list of Top 10 players of all time were that they won multiple Cups.

 

[JohnnyBerts]

It’s hard to say Ovi isn’t a top 10 player of all time but in a game that’s been around for over 100 years, top 10 starts to become subjective. Does Jagr win a cup without Mario?

Ovi’s durability alone is amazing. I’m not sure the cup metric holds the same value it once did. Second in goals all time and he did it in this era, that’s incredible.

 

[Iapyi]

You have to be totally delusional to call Ovechkin top 5 hockey player of all time. Being honestly objective he isnt top 100 of all time not even top 200 if we talk about overall hockey ability skills hockey sense etc. Watch him play shift by shift what he brings to table he is usually terrible shot is good but that's about it. Every sensible hockey coach would take P.Forsberg Datsyuk Fedorov Kopitar over Ovechkin and it would be wise to take guys like Jere Lehtinen over him if you want to win. Peak Ovechkin was pretty good but it lasted like 3 years average Ovy other 10+ years he's been just lazy fat floater who has mediocre puck skills/motor skills compared to best players in general also lacks much in hockey IQ department. He is most overrated player in hockey history and its very questionable to even call him good hockey player and talk about him compared to guys like Jagr Crosby etc is just bad joke.

I agree 100%. It's the sizzle versus substance debate. I had a bunch of posters personally attacking me when I've made similar comments, not that I cared what they thought but it verified their character.

Ovechkin is a great goal scorer but he is NOT a good hockey player.

 

[MadLuke]

Lafleur has 6 great seasons and then had the career of an AHLer. OV is close enough to him in peak, but then destroys him in prime and longevity. Richard, please. His main argument is goals, which OV tears him a new one in anyway (9-5 rockets, against way better/more competition). The fact he won some cups in a 6 team league on a dynasty doesn't mean much. Espo is clearly boosted because of Orr. You have the group of players right, but you're wrong in saying they are ahead of OV. OV is in that group.

Just having won 10 cups on the Habs would not mean much it is true (when talking all time greatest players), is roles on those cup wins is what mean a lot, when you look at list like those:

NHL Records

I think there is 0 player from the 06 on that page, except for Maurice Richard at #2

Same here:
NHL Stats

Almost no player from the original 6, in the Top 20 we only see a top 5 goalscorer of all time in Hull that quited the NHL early and had is aging season in the diluted expended league toward the end of it, yet Richard is at the very top behind Lemieux and high scoring era Bossy here.

That in part what special with him, so many decades after is name pop-up on list when no one else of that 6 team league's do.

NHL & WHA Yearly Playoff Leaders and Records for Goals | Hockey-Reference.com
Maurice Richard did lead the playoff in goals 5 times, the most times of any players, Ovechkin once.

No one tear Richard in playoff goalscoring he still has an argument for greatest playoff goalscorer of all time and an argument for the player you pick to play during an overtime of a playoff game.

 

[MadLuke]

Ovechkin is a great goal scorer but he is NOT a good hockey player.

I feel like peak Ovechkin was one of the best hockey player of all time, you can argue for out of is peak not being a great one, but not a good hockey player seem pushing it quite a lot.


Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

 

[filinski77]

I agree 100%. It's the sizzle versus substance debate. I had a bunch of posters personally attacking me when I've made similar comments, not that I cared what they thought but it verified their character.

Ovechkin is a great goal scorer but he is NOT a good hockey player.

I don't agree with people attacking you personally, and you're 100% entitled to believe whatever you want of course.

But to say that Ovi isn't a good hockey player comes across completely delusional, and verifies that you don't know anything about hockey (or are just completely biased on this topic). Same with that moropanov guy who hates Ovechkin so much that he'd kill him if he had the chance.

Now that might be only my personal opinion, but I can guarantee you that it an opinion that is more reflective of reality than yours.

 

[filinski77]

Is he above Yzerman and Sakic? I certainly do not think so.

Outside of team accomplishments, Ovechkin has accomplished more than both of them put together (or close to it at least).

 

[Leafs1991]

The narrative that Cups help cement a players legacy is insanely stupid. A player winning the cup is completely dependent on how the team plays and not just on the individual. The individual, in this case, Ovechkin, can only do much for his team.

This isn't the 80s anymore where one player such as Gretzky can absolutely carry his team to success.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The narrative that Cups help cement a players legacy is insanely stupid. A player winning the cup is completely dependent on how the team plays and not just on the individual. The individual, in this case, Ovechkin, can only do much for his team.

This isn't the 80s anymore where one player such as Gretzky can absolutely carry his team to success.

I agree with the thrust of your post, but Gretzky never won a cup without 5 or 6 other hall of famers on his team - some of whom were all-time greats themselves.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Is he above Yzerman and Sakic? I certainly do not think so.

Unequivocally, yes.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

If he is Top 10, it would be 10. I'm not putting him ahead of Beliveau, Sakic, Yzerman, or Jagr.

None of the bolded have a case over Ovechkin, none of them

 

[JasonRoseEh]

I agree with the thrust of your post, but Gretzky never won a cup without 5 or 6 other hall of famers on his team - some of whom were all-time greats themselves.

And they won when he left whereas Gretzky never won again after leaving them

 

[evolutionbaby]

It should also be noted that it is the Hockey Hall of Fame, not just the NHL Hall of Fame. Ovechkin did not have a hockey career anywhere near that of Sakic and Yzerman.