2nd Cup affect Ovechkin's legacy/ all-time ranking?

[george14]

Arguments for Ovechkin:
-> Best goalscorer in NHL history (and goalscoring is the single most important and hardest thing to do in hockey)
-> Better peak between the 2
-> Much better individual accomplishments and trophies (matters when you start looking at all-time rankings)
-> Best playoff goalscorer of his generation

Arguments for Crosby:
-> Has been a higher quality player over the length of their total careers
-> More team success
-> Best playoff producer of his generation
-> Better 2-way player over the length of their total careers

Sid was nowhere near a Selke-Calibre player when he was at the top of his game. And even the last few years where he's taken a step back from an offensive side, he's still nowhere near the best defensive forwards in the league. He's great, but not one of the best. As far as playoffs go, both players have pretty similar decreases in their production when they get into the playoffs.

I say this pretty often, but I can see the arguments to rank either player higher in an all-time sense, I just find it silly when people don't agree that it's either close or debatable.

Your opinion is fair, but I just don't see any fair argument. Yes Ovi is a better goal scorer, Brett Hull was also a better goal scorer than Sid, Mike Gartner too. I don't think it's fair to isolate one stat.

When you say "much better individual accomplishments", in what way? Ovi has a big trophy case mainly due to Richards, which is impressive. Crosby has 1 more Art Ross, 1 more Smythe, and has been a Hart finalist 2 more times than Ovi. I agree Ovi is probably the GOAT scorer, but I feel some of your arguments are fault and incomplete. It's not that Richard's don't count, but there is a trophy for goal scoring, not one for assists. I wouldn't use Crosby leading the league in assists over Ovi because that is not Ovi's game.

Crosby being a multiple time MVP in the playoffs and regular season, while missing a ton of time due to injury, does it for me. He's succeeded at every level too, not just the NHL. He's won awards/led in scoring at international tournaments, which counts to me.

 

[filinski77]

Your opinion is fair, but I just don't see any fair argument. Yes Ovi is a better goal scorer, Brett Hull was also a better goal scorer than Sid, Mike Gartner too. I don't think it's fair to isolate one stat.

When you say "much better individual accomplishments", in what way? Ovi has a big trophy case mainly due to Richards, which is impressive. Crosby has 1 more Art Ross, 1 more Smythe, and has been a Hart finalist 2 more times than Ovi. I agree Ovi is probably the GOAT scorer, but I feel some of your arguments are fault and incomplete. It's not that Richard's don't count, but there is a trophy for goal scoring, not one for assists. I wouldn't use Crosby leading the league in assists over Ovi because that is not Ovi's game.

Crosby being a multiple time MVP in the playoffs and regular season, while missing a ton of time due to injury, does it for me. He's succeeded at every level too, not just the NHL. He's won awards/led in scoring at international tournaments, which counts to me.

"Your opinion is fair, but I just don't see any fair argument." Aren't arguments just based off of opinions anyways? Considering that there is no complete objective way to rank players all-time, any argument has to be based off of an opinion. Regardless...

I'm not isolating a single stat and saying Ovechkin is better than Crosby only because of goalscoring. But like I said, it's still a huge factor to consider, especially when he's arguably the best all-time at it, and it's the most important and hardest thing to do in hockey.

When comparing regular season accomplishments, Crosby has 1 more Ross, but Ovechkin has 1 more Hart (washes out). You wouldn't use leading the league in assists because it's fairly accepted that leading the league in assists often means leading the league in points too. Plus, goals are still viewed as more valuable than assists since there's like 1.7 assists per goal on average. When comparing players all-time, no-one really cares about how good their assist finishes were. Even if you wanted to add an imaginary assist trophy, Crosby only did that one time. Still a huge advantage in Ovechkin's favor here.

You mention how him having multiple MVP in the playoffs and RS does it for you, well Ovechkin has just as many total NHL MVP trophies (3+1 vs. 2+2). I also view the Smythe as half a team-award, since (other than extreme circumstances), you can only win if your team won the cup. But I still agree that the extra Smythe adds value to Crosby's side of the argument, just not that much considering that it's so team-based.

The whole international stuff goes right back to team arguments. Put Ovi on Team C and Crosby on Russia and the outcomes most likely aren't much different.

 

[george14]

"Your opinion is fair, but I just don't see any fair argument." Aren't arguments just based off of opinions anyways? Considering that there is no complete objective way to rank players all-time, any argument has to be based off of an opinion. Regardless...

I'm not isolating a single stat and saying Ovechkin is better than Crosby only because of goalscoring. But like I said, it's still a huge factor to consider, especially when he's arguably the best all-time at it, and it's the most important and hardest thing to do in hockey.

When comparing regular season accomplishments, Crosby has 1 more Ross, but Ovechkin has 1 more Hart (washes out). You wouldn't use leading the league in assists because it's fairly accepted that leading the league in assists often means leading the league in points too. Plus, goals are still viewed as more valuable than assists since there's like 1.7 assists per goal on average. When comparing players all-time, no-one really cares about how good their assist finishes were. Even if you wanted to add an imaginary assist trophy, Crosby only did that one time. Still a huge advantage in Ovechkin's favor here.

You mention how him having multiple MVP in the playoffs and RS does it for you, well Ovechkin has just as many total NHL MVP trophies (3+1 vs. 2+2). I also view the Smythe as half a team-award, since (other than extreme circumstances), you can only win if your team won the cup. But I still agree that the extra Smythe adds value to Crosby's side of the argument, just not that much considering that it's so team-based.

The whole international stuff goes right back to team arguments. Put Ovi on Team C and Crosby on Russia and the outcomes most likely aren't much different.

The problem is, your arguments are hypothetical. How do you know Canada wins with Ovi?

For me it's simple: Crosby produces better offensively, is much better defensively, and has achieved the same individual success (aside from goals), but more team success, in less time played. Crosby has missed out on a few home run awards due to injury (mainly 2013 where he took a puck to the face yet still finished 2nd). Just my opinion.

He's been voted best player by the NHLPA so many years in the random player poll, they know best. Ovi was better for a couple years IMO, but certainly not overall.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The problem is, your arguments are hypothetical. How do you know Canada wins with Ovi?

For me it's simple: Crosby produces better offensively, is much better defensively, and has achieved the same individual success (aside from goals), but more team success, in less time played. Crosby has missed out on a few home run awards due to injury (mainly 2013 where he took a puck to the face yet still finished 2nd). Just my opinion.

He's been voted best player by the NHLPA so many years in the random player poll, they know best. Ovi was better for a couple years IMO, but certainly not overall.

It's common sense. They have about 15 Hall of Famers on their Olympic roster per year. You have to be engaging in very bad faith to determine that they are likely not the winners regardless of one roster change. Yes, it is possible that the one time in the medal rounds he plays so notoriously bad to singlehandedly cost the team the game, but run the simulation a million times, and it is likely nothing changes in the overwhelming majority of cases.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Your opinion is fair, but I just don't see any fair argument. Yes Ovi is a better goal scorer, Brett Hull was also a better goal scorer than Sid, Mike Gartner too. I don't think it's fair to isolate one stat.

When you say "much better individual accomplishments", in what way? Ovi has a big trophy case mainly due to Richards, which is impressive. Crosby has 1 more Art Ross, 1 more Smythe, and has been a Hart finalist 2 more times than Ovi. I agree Ovi is probably the GOAT scorer, but I feel some of your arguments are fault and incomplete. It's not that Richard's don't count, but there is a trophy for goal scoring, not one for assists. I wouldn't use Crosby leading the league in assists over Ovi because that is not Ovi's game.

Crosby being a multiple time MVP in the playoffs and regular season, while missing a ton of time due to injury, does it for me. He's succeeded at every level too, not just the NHL. He's won awards/led in scoring at international tournaments, which counts to me.

Brett Hull isn't a 3 times MVP...