2nd Cup affect Ovechkin's legacy/ all-time ranking?

Discussion in 'National Hockey League Talk' started by Brucelenok, May 24, 2021.

  1. Brucelenok Registered User

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    Caps lost again in the 1st round three years straight after their Cup run. We can most likely to conclude that their window is closed or at least they are super close... But let's say if Ovi manages to grab another Cup before it all sets and done with another strong play off performance, do you think it will affect his legacy/ all time ranking or nothing really changes for him?
     
  2. MahomesforPresident Registered User

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    He's a top five player in NHL history imo.

    Cups aren't everything.

    Orr
    Gretzky
    Mario
    Howe
    Ovi
     
  3. ER89 Registered User

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    Ovi over jagr and sid? Maybe one, certaunly not both.
     
  4. Dessloch Morozov > Brodeur

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    Ovi has NOTHING on Jagr or Crosby, there is no way Ovie can be ranked before either Jagr or Crosby, there is just no way making a logic argument for that.

    Jagr owns Ovechkin in every possible way in both regular season & playoffs, whether its individual stats or team success/titles. Jagr owns Ovechkin in international team wins as well.

    Crosby has more points than Ovi in 180 less games or whatever it is + more playoff points & team success on both international level and in the NHL.

    I just cant see Ovie being ranked over Jagr or Crosby ever.
    ---
    Jagr has missed more games than Ovie due to lockouts as well, so Jagr should have been even further ahead.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
  5. Jozay Registered User

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    Ovechkins legacy is cemented already lol
     
  6. tarheelhockey Offside Review Specialist

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    Of course it would affect his legacy. His first Smythe shut up a lot of doubters. A second one would flip that aspect of his career into an advantage over almost every player in history, including Howe and Beliveau.

    Whether it affects his ranking depends on where you have him ranked. Moving up from #5 to #4 is insanely difficult and almost impossible unless a player has been building that case from Day One of his career. Moving up from #30 to #29 is a different story... another big playoff run could easily do that.
     
  7. AlexBrovechkin8 At least there was 2018.

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    Anything else from here on out is icing on the cake. He's accomplished everything you could want to accomplish as both an individual and as the captain of his team. He made hockey in DC a thing and outperformed a 9-figure contract. All that's left now is to see if they can make another Cup run and to see if he can chase down the impossible and break Gretzky's record. He's one of the best players to ever play and nothing that happens after today is really going to move the needle either way.
     
  8. The Hanging Jowl Registered User

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    Ovenchicken's accomplished it all IMO. He has zero to prove at this point and a 2nd Cup isn't necessary. He's one of the greatest of all time. If he sticks around long enough to get the goal title, even more so but it's not necessary.
     
  9. golffuul Registered User

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    Ovi is 1st ballot guaranteed, the 2018 Cup solidifies what was already a known fact.
     
  10. hamzarocks Registered User

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    He's not top 12. He is in the 13-20 range

    Gretzky
    Howe
    Orr
    Lemieux

    Are for sure better

    Then you have

    Crosby, Hull, Hasek, Rocket Richard, Esposito, Bourque, Lafleur, Beliveau, Roy, Jagr

    Who are ahead in any order
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
  11. Gatorbait19 Registered User

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    He’s going to go down as the best goal scorer in history no matter what, but he still has work to do if he wants to improve his stature amongst other HOFs. Ovie’s career in the playoffs:

    -6 first round exits

    -6 second round exits

    -1 Cup

    Cups are never easy to come by, but the caps’ run in 2018 is by far the exception and not the norm.
     
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  12. MahomesforPresident Registered User

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    Nobody can (Or is) questioning the fact he will be a 1st Ballot HOFer.

    Correct?

    He's a generational star who has made the league better. And more importantly turned Washington into a city that cares about the Caps. They are a premiere franchise.
     
  13. wetcoast Registered User

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    Ovi at 5th really?

    Sure he is the best goal scorer of all time but he is hardly even in the equation for 5th best overall.

    As for the OP, even if the Caps win another SC with Ovi, at this point he won't be the reason why he will be 36 next season.

    The HOH had Ovi at 22nd and honestly the best argument for him is maybe low teens overall.

    Put another way he is probably around the 10th best forward of all time overall.
     
  14. ThatsSoSlavin Registered User

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    Ovi is better than Hull, Rocket and esp
     
  15. hamzarocks Registered User

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    Not better than Hull, or Esposito.

    Rocket is arguable. I can give you that

    I forgot to have Jagr on that list who is better than OV imo as well all time and I think Lidstrom and Harvey, Shore have an argument as well for being better
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
  16. jetsforever Registered User

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    Mr. 1st-Round Exit
    (still a legend though)
     
  17. Iapyi Registered User

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    This thread has been highly laughable so far. I doubt he even makes the Top 20.
     
  18. viper0220 Registered User

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    He is one of the best players and one of best goal scorers of all time.

    Enjoy him because 2-3 years left.
     
  19. Hatfield Registered User

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    He needed the first Cup. Anything beyond that is just gravy on top.
     
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  20. TeeTee Registered User

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    I think Ovi is the best goal scorer of all time. Teams know what he is going to do yet they still cannot stop him. Truly remarkable.

    That said, he hasn't been a complete player for quite a while. His puck handling is abysmal, his skating has deteriorated quite a bit, and is not really in the flow of the game anymore. His effort is embarrassing.

    He had an incredible peak. A total freak of nature. His goal scoring has kept pace, but the rest of his game has not held up for quite a while.

    He is not remotely close to number 5 all time.
     
  21. Zuluss Registered User

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    A good argument for OV over Jagr starts with All-star team finishes
    Jagr 7x 1st, 1x 2nd
    OV 8x 1st, 4x 2nd, 3x 3rd

    Their best three seasons are similar (Jagr has way more points, Ovechkin has way more goals), but there is no doubt that if one looks at their best 5 or best 7 seasons, Jagr is ahead of Ovechkin.

    The issue is, Jagr has little outside of his best 8 seasons. Ovechkin has been in the talk for the best LW pretty much every season (well, probably this season injuries finally slowed him down, but that's his 16th season already). In this regard, Ovechkin is like Bourque, who was top5 in Norris voting almost his whole career, and that brings Bourque ahead of defensemen with probably higher peak. Ovechkin is doing a similar thing on LW.

    Let me also do the comparison for the three best consecutive seasons.
    In 2007-2010, OV led #10 in points by an average of 27% and led #10 in goals by an average of 50%.
    In 1998-2001, Jagr led #10 in points by an average of 33% and led #10 in goals by an average of 20%.

    Let's transform it in the 2018/19 (last full season) currency: in 2018/19, #10 in points was at 96 points, #10 in goals was 41 goals.
    Peak Ovechkin projects into 41*1.5=60 goal, 96*1.27=122 point guy, peak Jagr - into 41*1.2=48 goal, 96*1.33=128 point guy.
    This is very, very close, and I would actually take the 60-goal guy.
     
  22. 412 Others 5Cups beats 2Cups

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    There's no denying the goal scoring prowess. However, there is a pungent smell of failure when you consider the lack of cups. At the end of the day, does an entertaining one trick pony provide value in the W/L column? One advancement past the 2nd round provides an answer to that question.
     
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  23. wetcoast Registered User

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    Without even looking I'm guessing the RW all star competition was a bit better to say the least for Jagr than the LW situation for Ovi.

    I also have no idea on what you are talking about Jagr having little outside of his 8 best seasons either here.

    He has 11 top 10 scoring finishes overall and was still driving the play well into his 40s, ie he aged much better than Ovi has or will.

    All of this being said the debate over which winger was the better overall player is a very interesting one and it can go either way depending on what people value more I guess.
     
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  24. DrewGl Registered User

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    Everyone is going to grade players based on some sort of bias outside of direct stats. Ovi was one of the best to do it. He could retire tomorrow and go down as one of the best.
     
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  25. nowhereman Registered User

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    Crosby, Beliveau, Hull, Richard, and Harvey are the next group after the big four and then OV starts to enter the mix. He's not top 5.
     
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