2nd Cup affect Ovechkin's legacy/ all-time ranking?

[wetcoast]

Everyone is going to grade players based on some sort of bias outside of direct stats. Ovi was one of the best to do it. He could retire tomorrow and go down as one of the best.

If by direct stats you mean goal scoring, yes he is the best ever in that department and despite excellent health he was only top 10 in points 8 times.

No one seriously rates players on "direct stats" either as the NHL has had higher and lower scoring eras and less and more GP among other variables.

Sometimes when we are talking top 5, 10, 20 even 50 players of all time some of the nuances are what matters.

 

[nhlfan9191]

His legacy was cemented the moment he won a cup and Smythe in 2018. He only needed the one cup to get rid of the dark cloud that would’ve hung over him had he not gotten it. He’s just padding his personal stats and seeing how far he can take it as far as it goes for the best players and best goalscorer of all time.

 

[Nasti]

West coast fan who has no dog in this fight. Ovechkin is not and has never been the player Jagr was. Don’t forget his prime was played in the dead puck era and was a more complete player who was a threat in multiple ways.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

He's not top 12. He is in the 13-20 range

Gretzky
Howe
Orr
Lemieux

Are for sure better

Then you have

Crosby, Hull, Hasek, Rocket Richard, Esposito, Bourque, Lafleur, Beliveau, Roy, Jagr

Who are ahead in any order

Lafleur has 6 great seasons and then had the career of an AHLer. OV is close enough to him in peak, but then destroys him in prime and longevity. Richard, please. His main argument is goals, which OV tears him a new one in anyway (9-5 rockets, against way better/more competition). The fact he won some cups in a 6 team league on a dynasty doesn't mean much. Espo is clearly boosted because of Orr. You have the group of players right, but you're wrong in saying they are ahead of OV. OV is in that group.

 

[hamzarocks]

Lafleur has 6 great seasons and then had the career of an AHLer. OV is close enough to him in peak, but then destroys him in prime and longevity. Richard, please. His main argument is goals, which OV tears him a new one in anyway (9-5 rockets, against way better/more competition). The fact he won some cups in a 6 team league on a dynasty doesn't mean much. Espo is clearly boosted because of Orr. You have the group of players right, but you're wrong in saying they are ahead of OV. OV is in that group.

How was the rest of Lafleur's seasons AHL level? He had multiple years above ppg outside of his 6 year peak. He also is propped down the last 3 years due to retirement and coming back

Esposito isn't simply propped up by Orr. Elite players play great with other elite players. Esposito was the Gretzky before Gretzky came in terms of peak offensive production

Richard is the guy I can see OV being better than.

If OV is in that group he's one of last ones on that list

 

[Zuluss]

Without even looking I'm guessing the RW all star competition was a bit better to say the least for Jagr than the LW situation for Ovi.

I checked out 2001/02, when Jagr was 5th in points and 5th in All-star voting - he was beaten by Bill Guerin, Pavol Demitra and Glen Murray.
I checked out 2006/07, when Jagr was 8th in points and 6th in All-star voting. He was beaten by Heatley, who Ovechkin was able to beat in the season before that, and by MSL who Ovechkin had no trouble beating in All-star voting even when MSL won the Art Ross in 2012/13.

Another thing to consider is that All-star voting is taken based on one season, not on career or the history of LW position. Jamie Benn is a smaller player than Cam Neely, but in his Art Ross season Benn was a tough competition. In other years, he was not, but there was always enough good LWs around to challenge OV in their career season.

I also have no idea on what you are talking about Jagr having little outside of his 8 best seasons either here.

He has 11 top 10 scoring finishes overall and was still driving the play well into his 40s, ie he aged much better than Ovi has or will.

Jagr never got any material number of All-star votes or Hart votes outside of his best 8 years. One of those 8 years happened when Jagr was 33, but outside of that it is not clear how Jagr "aged better". Post-30 Ovechkin has robust following in All-star voting and Hart voting - 10-20 voters vote Ovechkin top5 in the league in all his healthy post-30 years, and pretty much all voters have him top3 in his position if healthy. The same cannot be said about aging Jagr.

Ovechkin already has more top20 finishes in points than Jagr (14 vs 13), and when Ovechkin is out of top10 in points, he is probably just 5 points out of #10 - but also wins goal-scoring titles - so he gets Hart votes, he gets on All-star teams. When Jagr was top10 in points, he was just part of a large pack of players - and thus did not get Hart and All-star votes.
I mean, talk to lifelong Caps fans who remember Jagr on the Caps (I was following Detroit more at that time) and ask them if they would trade 2017-2020 Ovechkin (aged 32-34) for 2001-2004 Jagr (aged 29-31). Based on point finishes (5-19-15 for Jagr, 11-15-16 for OV) you would think they would, right?

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

How was the rest of Lafleur's seasons AHL level? He had multiple years above ppg outside of his 6 year peak. He also is propped down the last 3 years due to retirement and coming back

Esposito isn't simply propped up by Orr. Elite players play great with other elite players. Esposito was the Gretzky before Gretzky came in terms of peak offensive production

Richard is the guy I can see OV being better than.

If OV is in that group he's one of last ones on that list

Who cares if Lafleur had PPG seasons outside of those 6 years? He was playing on a dynasty in the most watered down era in history, PPG didn't mean anything then. Outside of those 6 years he never finished top 10 in goals, assists, pts or hart. That's an AHL career in comparison to the other all time greats.

Yeah, because of Orr. Let me know what he did before and after Orr. Oh that's right, 1x top 10 in goals, 1x top 10 in pts, 0x top 10 hart voting, 0x ASTs. Real Gretzky like. Before you say it's a small sample size, there were 9 seasons. He was clearly propped up by Orr.

 

[HabsQC]

Every single time his team sucked in the playoffs, Ovi wasn't sucking.

 

[BlueAzN]

He's a top five player in NHL history imo.

Cups aren't everything.

Orr
Gretzky
Mario
Howe
Ovi

Lol, classic just look at the stats and come up with an opinion. If you've seen Ovi play throughout his career, his game impact is much lower than those of Sid, Sakic, Yzerman, and other players. Ovi isn't even top 20 in my book. Great sniper tho.

 

[Nasti]

Lol, classic just look at the stats and come up with an opinion. If you've seen Ovi play throughout his career, his game impact is much lower than those of Sid, Sakic, Yzerman, and other players. Ovi isn't even top 20 in my book. Great sniper tho.

Also add Messier.

 

[topshelf15]

If cups were won by individual players Macd would have a couple by now....Ovie is one of the greatest goalscoring wingers the game has ever seen

 

[Fantomas]

A good argument for OV over Jagr starts with All-star team finishes
Jagr 7x 1st, 1x 2nd
OV 8x 1st, 4x 2nd, 3x 3rd

Their best three seasons are similar (Jagr has way more points, Ovechkin has way more goals), but there is no doubt that if one looks at their best 5 or best 7 seasons, Jagr is ahead of Ovechkin.

The issue is, Jagr has little outside of his best 8 seasons. Ovechkin has been in the talk for the best LW pretty much every season (well, probably this season injuries finally slowed him down, but that's his 16th season already). In this regard, Ovechkin is like Bourque, who was top5 in Norris voting almost his whole career, and that brings Bourque ahead of defensemen with probably higher peak. Ovechkin is doing a similar thing on LW.

Let me also do the comparison for the three best consecutive seasons.
In 2007-2010, OV led #10 in points by an average of 27% and led #10 in goals by an average of 50%.
In 1998-2001, Jagr led #10 in points by an average of 33% and led #10 in goals by an average of 20%.

Let's transform it in the 2018/19 (last full season) currency: in 2018/19, #10 in points was at 96 points, #10 in goals was 41 goals.
Peak Ovechkin projects into 41*1.5=60 goal, 96*1.27=122 point guy, peak Jagr - into 41*1.2=48 goal, 96*1.33=128 point guy.
This is very, very close, and I would actually take the 60-goal guy.

Jagr's playoff resume is also a mixed bag at best. Many mediocre and some poor playoff showings. No Smythe or Smythe-level performances.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

West coast fan who has no dog in this fight. Ovechkin is not and has never been the player Jagr was. Don’t forget his prime was played in the dead puck era and was a more complete player who was a threat in multiple ways.

I think a lot of Caps fans would disagree with this take on Jagr. Complete is not a word I would use to describe Jagr. If you're alluding to the fact that he's equally capable at scoring goals or being a playmaker, then I guess it makes sense then.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Ovi has NOTHING on Jagr or Crosby, there is no way Ovie can be ranked before either Jagr or Crosby, there is just no way making a logic argument for that.

Jagr owns Ovechkin in every possible way in both regular season & playoffs, whether its individual stats or team success/titles. Jagr owns Ovechkin in international team wins as well.

Crosby has more points than Ovi in 180 less games or whatever it is + more playoff points & team success on both international level and in the NHL.

I just cant see Ovie being ranked over Jagr or Crosby ever.
---
Jagr has missed more games than Ovie due to lockouts as well, so Jagr should have been even further ahead.

While im not sure if Ovi is ahead, the slurping of Jagr needs to stop.

You can easily make a case for Ovechkin over Jagr.

Ovechkin was able to lead his team to a cup... Jagr had no success without Lemieux

 

[Hatfield]

West coast fan who has no dog in this fight. Ovechkin is not and has never been the player Jagr was. Don’t forget his prime was played in the dead puck era and was a more complete player who was a threat in multiple ways.

He was dogshit in Washington.

 

[Frosty415]

Ovi is top 5, the haters will always cry about it.

his goals says it all.

 

[Dessloch]

While im not sure if Ovi is ahead, the slurping of Jagr needs to stop.

You can easily make a case for Ovechkin over Jagr.

Ovechkin was able to lead his team to a cup... Jagr had no success without Lemieux

Oh really? So you compare the loaded Caps teams with the rubbish Penguins team that Jagr by himself carried to the playoffs. Or the lousy Caps team or the crap Rangers team or the other bottom feeders Jagr played for. If you honestly think that argument is valid, I have no idea what to tell you.

Jagr still got 2 cups, Ovechkin one. Jagr smokes Ovechkin like a bad cigar on everything stats wise and he did so playing with worse linemates than Ovie.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Do 4 Cups make Kirk Maltby an all time great?

Team accomplishments to argue individual players is a joke.

 

[Dessloch]

He was dogshit in Washington.

Jagr was a beast in every team he played for except in Washington, and he still was a over point per game player with the Caps, so saying he was dogshit is hardly fair. Jagr and the Caps style of play obviously did not work well together.

 

[SeanConn]

He has a cup AND a Conn Smythe. Obviously another cup will add to his legacy, but it isn't going to be the difference maker between him being inside or outside of the top 5, or top 10 all time.

If he hits 895 goals, THAT will have a much more major impact on his all time legacy.

 

[Red Dread]

If people are going to use only one Cup as a metric of Ovechkin's efficacy as a leader, okay I guess. Still a Conn Smythe and Stanley Cup winner. Ovechkin's legacy will be, and has been, cemented as one of the best goal scorers in the history of the league.

 

[Zuluss]

at all the hot takes in this thread that Ovechkin is not top20 ever and Messier/Sakic/Yzerman was better
Ovechkin is Bobby Hull 2.0, as close as it gets, and the fact that Ovechkin probably has Hull beat at Hull's strongest suit, goal-scoring, is a big thing.
I understand if Bobby is not your #5 all-time, but he has to be in your top10 somewhere, keeping Hull Sr. out of top10 ever to smuggle in some "complete" players is a travesty.
And Ovechkin is right where Hull is, they are almost identical.

 

[T REX]

Ovi might be top ten...that's pushing it.

I think he's done.

No way he gets the record.

 

[Ovie's Neighbor]

People are arguing over decimal points here. Is he top 10? Top 15? Top 20? Whatever. Either way he is one of the all time greats and another cup won’t change much.

 

[Oneiro]

The team never got true consistent 2nd line depth. In 2018, Kuznetsov goes beast mode and look what happens.

Same for Boston, really.