Winning multiple Cups isn’t everything for a player’s legacy, having 1 and a Conn Smythe is enough in that regard. Caps should have won more but that’s hardly an indictment on Ovi especially considering he’s basically a PPG player for his playoff career(135 in 141).
2nd Cup affect Ovechkin's legacy/ all-time ranking?
- Thread starter Brucelenok
- Start date
Much better line mates keeps coming up for Ovie...
Chris Clark
V. Kozlov
D. Zubrus
....really?
Chris Clark
V. Kozlov
D. Zubrus
....really?
SouthGeorge
Registered User
- May 2, 2018
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Yeah, only one cup is a fluke. Anybody can do something once. He's still known for playoff failures and not getting past the 2nd round to me.
how is that Ovi’s fault alone? Aside from the 2013 playoffs he’s performed well every single year that the Caps were in it. Hockey isn’t an individual game, never understand why arguments like Cups and team success are the end all be all.
No Cup is ever a fluke and Ovi won the Conn Smythe in addition to it.
I Hate Blake Coleman
Bandwagon Burner
It will matter to those moving goalposts. Ovechkin was never gonna win a Cup. Now, he's never gonna get another. Nevermind that Ovechkin had the best peak since Lemieux/Jagr and the laundry list of accomplishments and rewards he has on his resume.
Hart x3
Rocket Richard x9
Art Ross x1
Calder x1
Pearson/Lindsay x3
Conn Smythe x1
Stanley Cup x1
730 goals(and counting)
guy is easily top 10 and arguably top 5 once’s he’s done
Rocket Richard x9
Art Ross x1
Calder x1
Pearson/Lindsay x3
Conn Smythe x1
Stanley Cup x1
730 goals(and counting)
guy is easily top 10 and arguably top 5 once’s he’s done
filinski77
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It's absolutely laughable how many people pin the lack of cups on Ovi. It's essentially admitting they either know nothing about hockey (and how one person alone can't win a cup) or are are completely biased.
If you take a look at Crosby/Ovechkin's offensive production relative to their team each year in the playoffs:
| Ovi - Points | Ovi - Goals | Crosby - Points | Crosby - Goals | |
| 2006 | ||||
| 2007 | 1 | 1 | ||
| 2008 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 |
| 2009 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 |
| 2010 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 |
| 2011 | 1 | 1 | ||
| 2012 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 |
| 2013 | 6 | 2 | 3 | 1 |
| 2014 | 3 | 10 | ||
| 2015 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 |
| 2016 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 |
| 2017 | 5 | 2 | 2 | 3 |
| 2018 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 2 |
| 2019 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 7 |
| 2020 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 |
| 2021 | 1 | 1 | 6 | 3 |
Remove the duplicates:
| Ovi - Points | Crosby - Points |
| 1 | 2 |
| 1 | 2 |
| 1 | 3 |
| 5 | 3 |
| 4 |
| Ovi - Goals | Crosby - Goals |
| 1 | 3 |
| 1 | 3 |
| 1 | 3 |
| 2 | 3 |
| 2 | 7 |
| 10 |
Crosby is the best playoff performer of this generation, but offence is still any top-line players #1 job (and Crosby only really became a great 2-way player in the last handful of years anyways). And Ovi has been better offensively relative to the Caps than Crosby has been relative to the Pens. It is very likely that if Ovi and Crosby swapped teams, the Pens still have more cups than the Caps do in the last 16 years.
Laveuglette
Le meilleur receveur de passes de tous les temps
It would greatly improve the resume of the 2005-2025 Washington Capitals, which are closely related to Ovechkin obviously. OV is already a legend that we will never forget, but yes a second cup would affect his legacy, obviously. And a third one even more. And so on. Just imagine what people would say if OV finished his career with another cup. It'd be part of the legend for sure.
Back to back cups before retiring? People here would call him the GOAT for TWO weeks
Back to back cups before retiring? People here would call him the GOAT for TWO weeks
OppositeLocK
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OV is 6th all time in G/GP whereas Crosby is 39th. He's ahead of scrubs like Gretzky, Hull, and Richard.
I have nothing on Crosby. OV has a lot and then some.
Goose
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Ovi is a Top 5 goal scorer of all time. Maybe #1, hard to compare eras.
Not a chance he is a Top 5 player overall. Putting him ahead of Jagr is an actual joke. I think the argument that he’s better than Sid is deeply flawed, but at least that comparison makes sense. Ovi over Jagr is just nonsense.
Not a chance he is a Top 5 player overall. Putting him ahead of Jagr is an actual joke. I think the argument that he’s better than Sid is deeply flawed, but at least that comparison makes sense. Ovi over Jagr is just nonsense.
Not recognizing that Ovechkin and Jagr are at least very close is in fact nonsense.
Jagr's peak points, average per 4 seasons - 111
#10 in points in those years - 84 points on average
Ovechkin's peak points, average per 3 seasons - 110
#10 in points in those years - 87 points on average
So where is the big difference? Jagr had one extra year of peak scoring, I will give you that. But in terms of how high the peak was - nah, they are even. And that's before we consider the fact that Ovechkin was a formidable goal-scorer at his peak, and Jagr could not beat Bondra or Tkachuk for a Rocket.
Hockey Outsider
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Goose
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You’re cherry picking stats and yet you still have to acknowledge that Jagr had more peak scoring, while ignoring the fact that we are talking about the second highest scoring player in NHL history.
Ovi’s needle is too close to the 1-Dimensional end to be seriously compared to Jagr in terms of overall game.
Just my opinion of course, you’re welcome to differ, but as someone who’s watched a lot of both guys play, it would take me about a second to make up mind if you gave me those guys at the beginning of their careers and asked who I wanted to build a franchise around.
Nasti
Registered User
Yes, that’s what I meant. More complete offensive player.
I am just comparing their consecutive years at the top - and I am not throwing in another elite year by Ovechkin, even though Ovechkin had more of those than Jagr.
Just look at their All-star team placements:
Jagr 7x 1st, 1x 2nd
OV 8x 1st, 4x 2nd, 3x 3rd
The fact that Jagr, as a 40-year-old, compiled his way to #2 in points all-time does not really add all that much.
Then how come Hart voters keep placing OV on their ballots way after he turned 30, and Jagr never got any attention from them unless he was seriously challenging for the Art Ross?
Apparently Hart voters see the value in OV that goes way beyond his points production, and with Jagr Hart voters would rather have anyone else who is close in points, but not him.
Weztex
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You say ''unless he was challenging for the Art Ross'' like it's a bad thing.
And why would you compare Ovechkin and Jagr by their voting ballots after 30? Ovi is 35. That's pretty convenient that Jagr left the NHL at 35 only to come back 4 years later.
At 33, Jagr placed 2nd in Hart voting
At 33, Ovechkin placed 7th in Hart voting
At 43, Jagr placed 7th in Hart voting
I'm not even sure how you can twist you way into giving Ovechkin the upper on those yet either.
Toene
Y'en aura pas de facile
- Nov 17, 2014
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It is not a bad thing to be in the running for the Art Ross.
But the fact that when Jagr finished top10 and even top5 in points, Hart voters and All-star voters wanted no part of him - this fact is not a good thing at all.
At the very least, that fact tells you that valuing Jagr by his points would be overvaluing him.
Ovechkin, on the other hand, is often voted on All-star teams and gets on a good number of Hart ballots if he simply finishes top20 in points. And people here are calling OV "one-dimensional"
Post-30 career is usually a good measure of longevity. Ovechkin has been on at least 15 Hart ballots in his age 30, age 32, age 33 seasons. His All-star team record in those years is 1x 1st, 1x 2nd, 3x 3rd - and that's ignoring the 4 Rockets, a Smythe, and the fact that "age 30" cutoff is not kind to Ovechkin - his Hart runner-up season of 2014/15 just misses the cut.
After Jagr turned 30, he was a Hart runner-up once, and then got on a fair number of ballots once more, as you correctly say. In terms of All-star voting, he only got on the 1st team once, and then got nothing (which also begs the question of why Hart voters voted Jagr over Tarasenko and Pavelski, but All-star voters emphatically did the opposite - were the Hart voters just trying to give Jagr a farewell gift in appreciation of his career, not as much of his play that season?)
Just like you say, I can't see how you can twist that to claim that Jagr's post-30 career was better and he aged better. Maybe you can point me to a KHL season that screams "if that guy had been in the NHL, he would have been on the 1st All-star team" - I personally do not see such a KHL season in Jagr's record. He was simply a ppg player in KHL - Radulov was like 1.5 ppg player there, he came over and then what? Not much happened.
CokenoPepsi
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He's a future HOFer and an all-time great already. A second cup doesn't add much to that. Maybe if he did it with another team or something.
Warden of the North
Ned Stark's head
JasonRoseEh
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I'm gonna play contrarian here as a fellow Caps fan eventhough I basically agree with everything you're saying, just hear me out:
When the Capitals started to round into shape if you had to place an over/under on Cups for that team I think most would have said 2. Now the Stanley Cup is the hardest trophy to win in pro sports, I don't deny that and I absolutely do not blame Ovechkin for any deficiency team wise with the Washington Capitals, his numbers are stellar and if he wasn't the best player or at least one of the best in for his team the Caps had zero chance to win. He's suffered through so many supposed star teammates completely no showing series year after year until they finally got past the second round and won it all. After that, most thought they'd get back again but here we are with 3 straight first round exist which again, outside of this year where he's hurt, he played extremely well and most of his team didn't do shit.
I think Ovechkin needs to go get another and he should leave Washington to do it. If I'm him, and I'm clearly not, this team has failed for for the last time, I'm out. His best chance to win another Cup and pursue Gretzky's record is not in a Capitals uniform.
Saying that, if he stays he's absolutely a top 10 player all time already and he isn't done, he's lived up to basically everything billed and then some, but another Cup would put it over the top. Is that what he really wants?
