Line Combos: '22-'23 Roster & Line Combos

[Henkka]

Suter is as good against 4th line competition as Raymond is against 1st line competition.

Yeah, and how Raymond has been worse at this season, against easier 2nd line competition.

Maybe there's some easier compeition Suter has faced.

BUT THE WHOLE POINT FOR THIS DAMN DISCUSSION WAS;

That who would DESERVE a 2nd line spot in these injury cases of all of those bottom6 players, who are at 4th line, without breaking the 3rd line.

And Pius Suter is BY FAR BEST from that group playing against easiest competition, like all of them do, of our damn 4th liners. So he would DESERVE the promotion to be tried at 2nd freaking line before those other Veleno's and Ernes and Zadinas there. Beceuse they are worse than him.

/End of discussion.

 

[Ezekial]

Yeah, and how Raymond has been worse at this season, against easier 2nd line competition.

5 game sample size for a sophmore player.

 

[jaster]

Are we talking about moving him up to line 2 permanently? Or are we talking about trying him out on line 2 in our current situation - to replace Zadina and not break up the Redwood line?

I want nothing to do with either scenario.

 

[jaster]

My point was to take last season in account, to have bigger sample size. Maybe I was too stupid to do that.

Because with the sample size from this current season only, Pius Suter is our best producer at 5-on-5.

Suter 4.81
others = less

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

It's a bit miracle how total carbage can be our best producer per IT.

Last season doesn't matter to me in this case because I'm talking about how guys should be utilized this season, under a different coach, in a different system, based on how they are performing right now.

This season, the fancy stats mean nothing. The sample size is too small, context very much matters at this point, and those numbers can't account for that. 5 games in, watching these guys is the only way you'll properly valuate them.

You know you can throw the stats in the trash when they are telling you that Pius Suter is our best player

 

[izlez]

I want nothing to do with either scenario.

Adam Erne it is.

 

[jaster]

Yeah, and how Raymond has been worse at this season, against easier 2nd line competition.

Maybe there's some easier compeition Suter has faced.

BUT THE WHOLE POINT FOR THIS DAMN DISCUSSION WAS;

That who would DESERVE a 2nd line spot in these injury cases of all of those bottom6 players, who are at 4th line, without breaking the 3rd line.

And Pius Suter is BY FAR BEST from that group playing against easiest competition, like all of them do, of our damn 4th liners. So he would DESERVE the promotion to be tried at 2nd freaking line before those other Veleno's and Ernes and Zadinas there. Beceuse they are worse than him.

/End of discussion.

Suter has not been appreciably better, offensively, than Erne this season. In fact, I can recall plays where Erne has driven the net, and even scored by shooting the puck. I can't recall Suter generating any offense at all really.

Suter has no goals by shooting the puck, and no primary assists. Again, given just that, if your stats are telling you Suter is one of our best offensive players, or the best offensive player, or whatever, those stats are obviously worthless.

 

[Gniwder]

Adam Erne it is.

Sadly, he is better than Zadina and Suter.

As stated before, the issue I have is that it puts Zadina and Suter together on the 4th line unless Luff (or someone else) gets called up.

 

[jaster]

On another topic relating to lines.... faceoffs. This early, I don't think it's enough to try to change centers or anything, especially with Copp still (hopefully) getting up to speed, but outside of Larkin, who's at 51.9% in the dot, the rest of the team is..... 71-123, for a 36.6% win rate. Yikes.

 

[izlez]

Sadly, he is better than Zadina and Suter.

As stated before, the issue I have is that it puts Zadina and Suter together on the 4th line unless Luff (or someone else) gets called up.

Yeah, I wouldn't actually wouldn't mind Erne on the 2nd line myself. But that does leave the 4th line in a bad spot.

I just don't know that the people that are so vehemently against Suter realize it's a conversation between Suter, Erne, and Zadina. Or maybe Veleno. Or maybe Czarnik or Luff or Hirose.

 

[Ezekial]

I'm aware of who is on the team.

 

[Gniwder]

Yeah, I wouldn't actually wouldn't mind Erne on the 2nd line myself. But that does leave the 4th line in a bad spot.

I just don't know that the people that are so vehemently against Suter realize it's a conversation between Suter, Erne, and Zadina. Or maybe Veleno. Or maybe Czarnik or Luff or Hirose.

Yup, slim pickings until Bert and Vrana return. Fabbri would be a good option compared to the crap pile you just mentioned.

 

[SantosHalper]

Wow... small line change suggestion and all hell breaks loose here.

We got two top-6 wingers out of action, Coach already said that no one is getting called up. We got two working lines, i don't fancy breaking them up. Kuba & Larkin are warm and they getting warmer, some of that heat should catch Raymond eventually. Redwood-line is excelent defensively and not bad offensively either.

Suter, Erne, Veleno, Zadina and Oesterle are the only spare parts we have now. Zadina, Veleno and Oesterle does not belong in the top-6 in any situation right now or at this rate ever. Suter suits better in the 2nd line than Erne, even if Suter's points are just luck. He is doing something to earn that luck. And with Copp and Perron i could see Suter being even more luckier. Suter was our 2nd line center last year, now could be a 2nd line winger for a while and with better linemates than he had last year. That should also help him.

Im not against trying Erne in the 2nd line as well, especially if Suter can't get anything done. Then it's Erne's turn, both of them should get a shot there. It's just might do wonders to their trade value. But one thing is sure, is that Zadina being in the 2nd line doesn't help Copp and Perron or Zadina himself.

Veleno - Zadina in the 4rt line, they had some chemistry before. Simple hockey, back to basics and no pressure situation.

 

[NickH8]

Wow... small line change suggestion and all hell breaks loose here.

We got two top-6 wingers out of action, Coach already said that no one is getting called up. We got two working lines, i don't fancy breaking them up. Kuba & Larkin are warm and they getting warmer, some of that heat should catch Raymond eventually. Redwood-line is excelent defensively and not bad offensively either.

Suter, Erne, Veleno, Zadina and Oesterle are the only spare parts we have now. Zadina, Veleno and Oesterle does not belong in the top-6 in any situation right now or at this rate ever. Suter suits better in the 2nd line than Erne, even if Suter's points are just luck. He is doing something to earn that luck. And with Copp and Perron i could see Suter being even more luckier. Suter was our 2nd line center last year, now could be a 2nd line winger for a while and with better linemates than he had last year. That should also help him.

Im not against trying Erne in the 2nd line as well, especially if Suter can't get anything done. Then it's Erne's turn, both of them should get a shot there. It's just might do wonders to their trade value. But one thing is sure, is that Zadina being in the 2nd line doesn't help Copp and Perron or Zadina himself.

Veleno - Zadina in the 4rt line, they had some chemistry before. Simple hockey, back to basics and no pressure situation.

Oesterle should be 1C, I am simply on a higher plane of thinking.

 

[Ezekial]

Oesterle should be 1C, I am simply on a higher plane of thinking.

What's his GFx after 4 games averaging 11 mins a night tho? Because rate stats aren't affected by small sample sizes at all.
Make D zone pass and now you've earned that luck. The dude is so good he produces scoring chances from our own hash marks all on his own.

 

[Gniwder]

Oesterle should be 1C, I am simply on a higher plane of thinking.

Is Toledo that thin at center?

 

[gritdash60]

I have to say, especially against ducks Sundqvist looked pretty good. Or maybe it's just the hair that makes him so easy to notice lol.

I guess it shouldn't be a surprise that some of the young/lesser guys look better now that we added some veteran presence, and they aren't as exposed as before.

Oh and Kubalik, yeah this dude isn't a fraud, he is such a great addition to the team.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I have to say, especially against ducks Sundqvist looked pretty good. Or maybe it's just the hair that makes him so easy to notice lol.

I guess it shouldn't be a surprise that some of the young/lesser guys look better now that we added some veteran presence, and they aren't as exposed as before.

Oh and Kubalik, yeah this dude isn't a fraud, he is such a great addition to the team.

He looked pretty good for Detroit last year as well. The Blues giving us Sundqvist in the Leddy trade looks like a bad move for them right now. Sunny would be a huge boost to their bottom 6 right now.

 

[Gniwder]

He looked pretty good for Detroit last year as well. The Blues giving us Sundqvist in the Leddy trade looks like a bad move for them right now. Sunny would be a huge boost to their bottom 6 right now.

Sunny was a cap casualty so they could re-sign Leddy. Keep in mind Sunny has a long history of injuries, much like Fabbri.....

It's only a good deal if he manages to stay healthy.


Kubalik for $2.5M is ridiculous. Makes up for Zadina's crap contract, lol.

 

[Hinterland]

He looked pretty good for Detroit last year as well. The Blues giving us Sundqvist in the Leddy trade looks like a bad move for them right now. Sunny would be a huge boost to their bottom 6 right now.

Right now yes...but that's because Buchnevich and Saad are both out with injuries. If the Blues are healthy, Sundqvist doesn't crack their top9 and the Blues don't have enough cap space to play Sundqvist on their 4th line.

 

[MBH]

Right now yes...but that's because Buchnevich and Saad are both out with injuries. If the Blues are healthy, Sundqvist doesn't crack their top9 and the Blues don't have enough cap space to play Sundqvist on their 4th line.

Yep.
No way they could afford Sundqvist.
And there was no way Sundqvist was getting PP time.
He's got 13 minute of PP time in 5 games this year. His previous high was 29 for a full season.

Detroit's current lineup is bunk by most NHL standards so Sundqvist is getting 3 minutes a night in PP time.

Good stuff. Because while I think Yzerman would love to have Sundqvist back at $1.5M or so - Sunny's gonna be a nice trade chip at the deadline.

 

[Henkka]

Yep.
No way they could afford Sundqvist.
And there was no way Sundqvist was getting PP time.
He's got 13 minute of PP time in 5 games this year. His previous high was 29 for a full season.

Detroit's current lineup is bunk by most NHL standards so Sundqvist is getting 3 minutes a night in PP time.

Good stuff. Because while I think Yzerman would love to have Sundqvist back at $1.5M or so - Sunny's gonna be a nice trade chip at the deadline.

Also power-play will need physical guys to make puck retrievals on certain plays, if you can't make controlled entry.

Sundqvist is doing BErtuzzi job there right now. The swap was 1-on-1 after the Bert injury. Quite sure he will fall out from the PP, when Bert will come back.

We'll see if Sundqvist will steal the role from Elmer from the 2nd PP after Bertuzzi return.

Think they should just spezialize, If Rasmussen+Sundqvist are important PK pair, then Söderblom should be at power-play. If they like to put Söderblom for PK, then I would understand Sundqvist at PP. But better otherways.

 

[steafo]

Is Hronek a better qb than seider? Noticed hes running pp1

I think maybe it's more that they think Seider would elevate PP2 but it seems wasted if Seider isn't getting the minutes. It's hard to be mad when we're scoring though.

 

[Henkka]

I think maybe it's more that they think Seider would elevate PP2 but it seems wasted if Seider isn't getting the minutes. It's hard to be mad when we're scoring though.

Hronek has been involved at 3 power-play goals with an assist, so he deserves that spot now. Wasted or not. Seider has only one point on the PP. Hronek has played 17 minutes on the PP and Seider 15 + half. So almost same. Both had an opportunity and Hronek did get that unit going.

Hronek has much more experience from our former power-plays, and is now playing with better guys than maybe ever on his career. Getting results. It's a good thing. They will change it, if it will start to regress. Nice to have two legit options. Better will play.

Hronek involved PP goals:

Perron scores from Hronek:


Kubalik scores from Sundqvist, Larkin touched the puck on the way to Sundqvist, but it was Hronek pass (no point for him).


Larkin scores from Kubalik, from Hronek. Sundqvist doing nice screen. Perron was kind of irrelevant for that goal.



Again, St. Louis guys doing the thing with Hronek, Perron (Hronek, Sundqvist)




(Seider's only point, he was involved on the same unit as Hronek now)
Pass to Kubalik, shot and Larkin scores from the rebound.


I never predicted our most effective PP unit would be like this, and with these guys.

But it's working, let keep it that way.

 

[steafo]

Hronek has been involved at 3 power-play goals with an assist, so he deserves that spot now. Wasted or not. Seider has only one point on the PP. Hronek has played 17 minutes on the PP and Seider 15 + half. So almost same. Both had an opportunity and Hronek did get that unit going.

Hronek has much more experience from our former power-plays, and is now playing with better guys than maybe ever on his career. Getting results. It's a good thing. They will change it, if it will start to regress. Nice to have two legit options. Better will play.

Hronek involved PP goals:

Perron scores from Hronek:


Kubalik scores from Sundqvist, Larkin touched the puck on the way to Sundqvist, but it was Hronek pass (no point for him).


Larkin scores from Kubalik, from Hronek. Sundqvist doing nice screen. Perron was kind of irrelevant for that goal.



Again, St. Louis guys doing the thing with Hronek, Perron (Hronek, Sundqvist)




(Seider's only point, he was involved on the same unit as Hronek now)
Pass to Kubalik, shot and Larkin scores from the rebound.


I never predicted our most effective PP unit would be like this, and with these guys.

But it's working, let keep it that way.

Not disagreeing at all or even claiming they need to change it. I was just saying when they were workshopping the powerplay units I think they probably thought Seider could elevate the 2nd unit a bit to have two "even" units and they could essentially split powerplays 50/50. I don't think they should change anything since it's working. All I was saying is that I think we can all agree that Seider is probably better than Hronek in most aspects of hockey including running a powerplay and that he'd even out the lines so to speak thankfully PP1 has been on fire and it doesn't really matter.

 

[SwedeChristoffer]

Hronek has been involved at 3 power-play goals with an assist, so he deserves that spot now. Wasted or not. Seider has only one point on the PP. Hronek has played 17 minutes on the PP and Seider 15 + half. So almost same. Both had an opportunity and Hronek did get that unit going.

Hronek has much more experience from our former power-plays, and is now playing with better guys than maybe ever on his career. Getting results. It's a good thing. They will change it, if it will start to regress. Nice to have two legit options. Better will play.

Hronek involved PP goals:

Perron scores from Hronek:


Kubalik scores from Sundqvist, Larkin touched the puck on the way to Sundqvist, but it was Hronek pass (no point for him).


Larkin scores from Kubalik, from Hronek. Sundqvist doing nice screen. Perron was kind of irrelevant for that goal.



Again, St. Louis guys doing the thing with Hronek, Perron (Hronek, Sundqvist)




(Seider's only point, he was involved on the same unit as Hronek now)
Pass to Kubalik, shot and Larkin scores from the rebound.


I never predicted our most effective PP unit would be like this, and with these guys.

But it's working, let keep it that way.

In general I agree with you. And the PP did look very dangerous.

However, I would like to see them play a good team before declaring the PP issues solved.

When it comes to Seider / Raymond, I think it's a good spot to be in to play on PP2. Especially when PP1 is working well.
No pressure to produce, so they can try stuff out, from PP1 they get a blue-print on how it should look. (For example, I think Raymond has a tendancy to slow down the PP to much, and Seider has a tendancy to shoot the puck too often).
Only downside is the obvious low PP-TOI.