2021 Roster Thread XVI - Where thoughts are both sweet and sour

[Beef Invictus]

"The level of being moronic," eh?

Then tell me: What does Ghost do better than Seth Jones?

Jones is faster, bigger, more physical, has a harder shot, blocks more shots, logs more minutes, plays in more situations, and has outproduced Ghost offensively in each of the last three seasons (and four out of the six seasons Ghost has been in the league).

Could you answer this question:

Who is better, Friedman or Ghost?

 

[Striiker]

Could you answer this question:

Who is better, Friedman or Ghost?

Add Hagg to that and really make his head explode.

 

[deadhead]

I'd trade Ghost for one year of Jones in a heartbeat. Cap hit would only be $0.9M and we'd clear it in 2022-23. No brainer.
Jones is better than Ghost overall, but not so much better that I'm paying a big premium on that deal.

I won't trade Sanheim or Myers for Jones and then have to overpay him on an extension until age 35.

2022-23 defense:
Provorov - Zamula
Sanheim - Myers
York/Hogberg/Wylie or pickup a cheap #6 RHD.
Basically roll 5 D-men with 20+ minutes and the 6th guy can be a role player with 12-15 minutes a night.

 

[Striiker]

I also like that the anti-stat activists don’t understand that xGF% doesn’t account for either teams goalies, which can easily determine a playoff series.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Could you answer this question:

Who is better, Friedman or Ghost?

Reminds me of, "And I haven't been to Europe."

 

[Beef Invictus]

Reminds me of, "And I haven't been to Europe."

You have asserted that waivers are a meaningful way to determine a player's value. Is that true?

 

[StarterHart]

"The level of being moronic," eh?

Then tell me: What does Ghost do better than Seth Jones?

Jones is faster, bigger, more physical, has a harder shot, blocks more shots, logs more minutes, plays in more situations, and has outproduced Ghost offensively in each of the last three seasons (and four out of the six seasons Ghost has been in the league).

Puck moving, for one. While Jones is by no means bad, Ghost's zone exit/entry numbers are among the best in the entire league.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Jones does seem to have stronger knees

 

[Ghosts Beer]

You have asserted that waivers are a meaningful way to determine a player's value. Is that true?

I have asserted that if Ghost was as good as you say he is, he wouldn't have gone unclaimed on waivers.

I have asserted that Seth Jones wouldn't have passed through waivers (and his cap hit is $900k more than Ghost's).

Your attempt at a "gotcha!" over Friedman and Ghost is transparent and feeble. Mark Friedman's cap hit is $725k. That's why he was claimed -- for league minimum defensive depth, not because he is a better player than Ghost. What it shows about Ghost is that the league doesn't think he's a $4.5M defenseman, unlike many here who continue to believe he's a first-pairing blueliner.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I have asserted that if Ghost was as good as you say he is, he wouldn't have gone unclaimed on waivers.

I have asserted that Seth Jones wouldn't have passed through waivers (and his cap hit is $900k more than Ghost's).

Your attempt at a "gotcha!" over Friedman and Ghost is transparent and feeble. Mark Friedman's cap hit is $725k. That's why he was claimed -- for league minimum defensive depth, not because he is a better player than Ghost. What it shows about Ghost is that the league doesn't think he's a $4.5M defenseman, unlike many here who continue to believe he's a first-pairing blueliner.

Oh that's interesting. So you admit that there's a lot that goes into player evaluation on waivers, and that waivers alone aren't indicative of a players' value? But rather, that the process is more complicated than "Went through, is bad."

Tell me, do you think it is possible for GMs to make an error and miss on a waived player? Or is that impossible? Since you're appealing to the authority of NHL GMs, would you say they're an infallible group that never errs?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Oh that's interesting. So you admit that there's a lot that goes into player evaluation on waivers, and that waivers alone aren't indicative of a players' value? But rather, that the process is more complicated than "Went through, is bad."

Tell me, do you think it is possible for GMs to make an error and miss on a waived player? Or is that impossible? Since you're appealing to the authority of NHL GMs, would you say they're an infallible group that never errs?

Why don't you tell me what Ghost does better than Seth Jones, since you keep trying to avoid the question and change the subject.

 

[deadhead]

It's doubtful there are 30 doofus GMs.
I'm sure people like Ghost, just not at $4.5M in a cap flat world with no money going the other way.

Which is why you could trade Ghost for Jones (with a sweetener), CBJ would have a D-man and PP QB under control for two years, the cap hit would be covered by Jones' salary. Just wouldn't include a 1st tier asset for a one year rental to make the deal work. Hagg and a 2nd?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Also interesting is this idea that a player's reputation is never wrong, apparently. Presumably Jones would have been picked up because of his reputation while Ghost would not have been due to his. When you actually look at players independent of their reputations, then the waiver results ought to have been the same.

This doesn't square with how often players get signed or traded based on reputation and it doesn't work out.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Why don't you tell me what Ghost does better than Seth Jones, since you keep trying to avoid the question and change the subject.

I already did

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's doubtful there are 30 doofus GMs.
I'm sure people like Ghost, just not at $4.5M in a cap flat world with no money going the other way.

Which is why you could trade Ghost for Jones (with a sweetener), CBJ would have a D-man and PP QB under control for two years, the cap hit would be covered by Jones' salary. Just wouldn't include a 1st tier asset for a one year rental to make the deal work. Hagg and a 2nd?

So if there aren't 30 doofus GMs, then NAK is not an NHL player on an NHL roster who multiple teams with need passed on?

GMs never repeatedly pass on major players in drafts either, I guess. It's a group that doesn't err.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Since this team isn't winning shit until management is purged from top to bottom anyway, I hope we get Jones as an experiment to see how long it takes for the coaches, management, and fans to realize he isn't what they think he is.

Provorov is already a running experiment on the subject (in particular on the PP), but Jones will be even more obvious. Let's see what it really takes for reality to be recognized.

It will be fun.

dont worry, it'll be his fault he isnt buying in...

hahaaa

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Funny, Beef, how you say Jones is a product of “reputation,” when I’d say that’s exactly what Ghost is to you & anyone else acting like he’s a first-pairing caliber defenseman and/or worth his $4.5M cap hit.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Funny, Beef, how you say Jones is a product of “reputation,” when I’d say that’s exactly what Ghost is to you & anyone else acting like he’s a first-pairing caliber defenseman and/or worth his $4.5M cap hit.

I don't base player judgements on reputation, but on results. Aside from a small group of players, reputations are always lagging and not terribly indicative. I'm basing on results.

You reject all results that don't conform to the reality you've set out to believe regardless of facts. That's why you end up doing stuff like defending Hagg. Or arguing in favor of paying a king's ransom for a baron.

 

[StarterHart]

Why don't you tell me what Ghost does better than Seth Jones, since you keep trying to avoid the question and change the subject.

He literally did. As did I, when you asked me the same question. You have yet to reply to or even acknowledge either response. Who's avoiding and changing the subject? I'll give you a hint.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Also, if I were basing my evaluation of Ghost upon reputation I'd be talking about how bad he is and how he never hits and never defends and always misses the net with shots and always turns the puck over. Because that's his reputation, right?

The fact that I'm not arguing for that alone scuttles the assertion I'm basing upon reputation rather than ignoring it to dig deeper.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Some Jake Voracek Material:

Believed that #1 PP unit with Simmonds, and G was good because they were so demanding on each other. If they have a shift where things didn’t go well:

Get back to the bench and start looking at each other. “f*** you G, f*** you Simmer. Simmonds is bitching at us, I’m getting between them. Simmer is saying, ‘f*** you, let’s go right now! I’m like, okay let’s go right now!”

When Lappy was behind the bench, Jake would sometimes come back after a long shift… Lappy would try and talk to him, and Jake would jokingly say “Lappy just let me f***ing get my breath”

As their relationship grew, Lappy would just stand and wait 20sec in silence. Where Jake would turn around, laugh and yell “what!”

Laughed at the fans that yell shoot when he’s on the PP. “With my shot, the wrister from the point. With the goalie unscreened. What is going to happen. He would have to get a groin strain for it to go in”

Mentioned he loves Philly, and he feels very happy to have spent so long here.

Berube was his fav coach.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Voracek and Simmonds fistfighting on the bench as Lappy tries to talk in Jake's ear would be A+ hockey content

 

[FlyerNutter]

Can take this for what it’s worth, did seem jokingly frustrated with people trying to change who he is as a player.

Mentioned his vision, how he’s being asked to shoot more, and how from the bench things look different. How his game is taking that extra 1-2 seconds more to find the opening.

 

[BritainStix]

Some Jake Voracek Material:

Believed that #1 PP unit with Simmonds, and G was good because they were so demanding on each other. If they have a shift where things didn’t go well:

Get back to the bench and start looking at each other. “f*** you G, f*** you Simmer. Simmonds is bitching at us, I’m getting between them. Simmer is saying, ‘f*** you, let’s go right now! I’m like, okay let’s go right now!”

When Lappy was behind the bench, Jake would sometimes come back after a long shift… Lappy would try and talk to him, and Jake would jokingly say “Lappy just let me f***ing get my breath”

As their relationship grew, Lappy would just stand and wait 20sec in silence. Where Jake would turn around, laugh and yell “what!”

Laughed at the fans that yell shoot when he’s on the PP. “With my shot, the wrister from the point. With the goalie unscreened. What is going to happen. He would have to get a groin strain for it to go in”

Mentioned he loves Philly, and he feels very happy to have spent so long here.

Berube was his fav coach.

Where is this from?

 

[FlyerNutter]

Where is this from?

I have my sources.

Hah, it’s the nasty knuckles podcast with Cote and the old Flyers equipment guy.

I’ll throw it on sometimes when doing other things, they have had a few fun guests.