2020 Off Season Discussion Part IV

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Mosby

Salt Lake Bound
Feb 16, 2012
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I think it's a little disingenuous to say Chayka gave up a second rounder because Martinook was picked in the second round.

Wasn't Chipchura waived at one point? Does that mean Maloney waived a first rounder?

There are a pile of things to criticize Chayka for but this is a stretch.
 

WrinkledPossum

Play Dead
Apr 23, 2016
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Yah it really takes things out if context.

-His worst move was Domi for Galchenyuk. It's looking better now that Domi is on to his third team but still horrible. Galch is just about out of the NHL.

-Strome/Perlini for Schmaltz is a wash. Strome did well when carried by Kane and DeBrincat. I'm not sold on him being a good 2C with avg wingers.

-DeAngleo + 1st for Stepan and Raanta looks horrible now. At the time it looked fair/good. It still helped us not completely suck.

-Galchenyuk, POJ for Kessel still looks fine. Galch sucks, POJ is unknown. But go back to trade 1 and we would be much better off with Domi or Anderson.

Hated the Domi deal when it happened, I think it's one of the worst trades if the last decade. I'd take a do over on the Stepan/Raanta deal. I wish we kept DeAngelo.

With the Strome/Schmaltz trade. The biggest issue there goes back to drafting Strome. It started the mess of trades and has sent us towards another rebuild/retool.
 

Canis Latrans

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Jan 19, 2015
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It's too superficial of an analysis. There's a fair bit he did well that he then utterly demolished by going all-in prematurely. Had he decided to grind out another season without using crucial rebuild assets to acquire Kessel and Hall, the cupboard would look much better and the team's trajectory probably is continuing to move up.

So yes, completely reasonable to overall rate him as having done a negative job, which he'll never get the chance to fix to redeem himself, but I think he just has those couple of very salient moves that completely torpedo everything positive he did.
 

rt

The Kinder, Gentler Version
May 13, 2004
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I think it's a little disingenuous to say Chayka gave up a second rounder because Martinook was picked in the second round.

Wasn't Chipchura waived at one point? Does that mean Maloney waived a first rounder?

There are a pile of things to criticize Chayka for but this is a stretch.
I think it's a little disingenuous to say Chayka gave up a second rounder because Martinook was picked in the second round.

Wasn't Chipchura waived at one point? Does that mean Maloney waived a first rounder?

There are a pile of things to criticize Chayka for but this is a stretch.
My first paragraph was intended to clear that up.

Nevertheless, you can forget all of that, put it all aside. Here’s what matters; Hjalmarsson, Stepan, and Raanta will hit UFA this summer. Oesterle is replacement level. Kessel sucks. Schmaltz is worthy of some hope and a bunch of skepticism. For these pieces, Chayka moved DeAngelo, Murphy, Martinook, Domi, and Strome (all of whom are good players) for that lot. Not to mention picks and prospects.

Assets Out > Assets In (especially considering age)

And for all of that trouble, he had the 4th worst team in the NHL in his time as GM combined. And the future is as bleak as the present.

He did an utterly horrendous job
 
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WrinkledPossum

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My first paragraph was intended to clear that up.

Nevertheless, you can forget all of that, put it all aside. Here’s what matters; Hjalmarsson, Stepan, and Raanta will hit UFA this summer. Oesterle is replacement level. Kessel sucks. Schmaltz is worthy of some hope and a bunch of skepticism. For these pieces, Chayka moved DeAngelo, Murphy, Martinook, Domi, and Strome (all of whom are good players) for that lot. Not to mention picks and prospects.

Assets Out > Assets In (especially considering age)

And for all of that trouble, he had the 4th worst team in the NHL in his time as GM combined. And the future is as bleak as the present.

He did an utterly horrendous job
Give us back Domi and DeAngelo and I'm fine with the trades. But yes, we don't have them so overall his trading sucked.

I still like the Hammer trade, he was much better than Murphy. I still think they're close. It's also quite likely Hammer re-signs as he wants to be in the valley with his family. He's a good mentor for the younger players. He could be very helpful with Soderstrom.
 

RemoAZ

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My first paragraph was intended to clear that up.

Nevertheless, you can forget all of that, put it all aside. Here’s what matters; Hjalmarsson, Stepan, and Raanta will hit UFA this summer. Oesterle is replacement level. Kessel sucks. Schmaltz is worthy of some hope and a bunch of skepticism. For these pieces, Chayka moved DeAngelo, Murphy, Martinook, Domi, and Strome (all of whom are good players) for that lot. Not to mention picks and prospects.

Assets Out > Assets In (especially considering age)

And for all of that trouble, he had the 4th worst team in the NHL in his time as GM combined. And the future is as bleak as the present.

He did an utterly horrendous job

I've talked about this many times. In most cases, I didn't like the trades when he made them and wished he hadn't done anything. Same with the Hall signing. The reason was we hadn't developed enough young players to create a core to build around. He kept trading young guys for players that were already capped out on talent. We knew what they were, good players that had peaked and in most cases were on the way down when we still needed guys on the way up. Murphy, Strome, Deangelo, Duclair, Domi, ect all still had room to grow as players. We still didn't really know how good they will be. You move those guys for vets when you're trying to put your contender over the top, not when you're trying to build one. You trade futures for a half season of Hall when you're trying to add to your cup contender. Did anyone think we were anywhere close to that? I hope not. He either didn't have a plan or the one he was working was a really bad one. And now we're still holding the bag for his f*** ups.
 
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Grimes

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Some trades Chayka made involving former, current and future 1st and 2nd rounders (keeping it to guys 25 or younger at the time of the trades, that actually still had real trade value and weren't total busts at that point-so leaving out guys like Henrik Samulesson, as an example):

2016 2nd for Anthony DeAngelo*
2011 1st (Connor Murphy) for Niklas Hjalmarsson
2017 1st and Anthony DeAngelo for Derek Stepan and Antti Raanta
2012 2nd (Jordan Martinook) for Marcus Kruger*
Marcus Kruger for Vinny Hinostroza*, Jordan Oesterle, and Marian Hossa
2013 1st (Max Domi) for Alex Galchenyuk*
2015 1st (Dylan Strome) and 2014 1st (Brendan Perlini) for Nick Schmaltz
2017 1st (PO Joseph) and Alex Galchenyuk for Phil Kessel
2020 1st, 2015 1st (Nick Merkley), 2018 2nd (Kevin Bahl) for Taylor Hall*
2020 2nd and 2021 1st sanctioned by the NHL for cheating

This means that Chayka has:

1. Niklas Hjalmarsson
2. Derek Stepan
3. Antti Raanta
4. Jordan Oesterle
5. Nick Schmaltz
6. Phil Kessel

...to show for:

1. 2016 2nd
2. 2011 1st
3. 2017 1st
4. 2012 2nd
5. 2013 1st
6. 2015 1st
7. 2014 1st
8. 2017 1st
9. 2020 1st
10 2015 1st
11 2018 2nd
12 2020 2nd
13 2021 1st

...in other words....

NINE 1st round picks and FOUR 2nd round picks for Hjalmarsson, Stepan, Raanta, Oesterle, Schmaltz, and Kessel

This is insane once it's all laid out. A lot of these loves felt really great at times (aquiring DeAngelo, Hjalmarsson) others were suspect but felt like the move would help them kids (Stepan, Kessel) and others were downright miserable (Domi for Gally). But in the end there are a lot of chips that got moved for a lot of players whose ceiling was already known and was declining.
 

KG

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Sep 23, 2010
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It's evident to me that Chayka, at some point, switched from rebuild mode to compete now mode. I am just wondering if that was his decision or Barroway's. I'm not sure at this point that Barroway was as good of an owner as is a tenet around here.
 
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XX

Waiting for Ishbia
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It's evident to me that Chayka, at some point, switched from rebuild mode to compete now mode. I am just wondering if that was his decision or Barroway's. I'm not sure at this point that Barroway was as good of an owner as is a tenet around here.

I don't think anyone rates him highly. He was just a bag holder smart enough to call bullshit on Tippett. He turned around and hired a neophyte who picked the wrong coach (Barroway was a big Tocchet guy). Toss in some accelerant like dumb decisions, a looming testing scandal punishment, the desire to win to generate revenue, deference to a dumb coach (Kessel) etc...

The Coyotes are almost constantly the confluence of all things bad or dumb in the hockey world. It's like a gravity well they don't have the velocity to escape.
 
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Heldig

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What potential is that?
Yes he had a poor start to his NHL career. He was rushed. Still, he has good size, is a good skater and has good vision and hockey IQ. If he develops physically (he was a pudding boy when drafted) he could meet his high projections.
 
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Coyotedroppings

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Jul 16, 2017
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Yah it really takes things out if context.

-His worst move was Domi for Galchenyuk. It's looking better now that Domi is on to his third team but still horrible. Galch is just about out of the NHL.

-Strome/Perlini for Schmaltz is a wash. Strome did well when carried by Kane and DeBrincat. I'm not sold on him being a good 2C with avg wingers.

-DeAngleo + 1st for Stepan and Raanta looks horrible now. At the time it looked fair/good. It still helped us not completely suck.

-Galchenyuk, POJ for Kessel still looks fine. Galch sucks, POJ is unknown. But go back to trade 1 and we would be much better off with Domi or Anderson.

Hated the Domi deal when it happened, I think it's one of the worst trades if the last decade. I'd take a do over on the Stepan/Raanta deal. I wish we kept DeAngelo.

With the Strome/Schmaltz trade. The biggest issue there goes back to drafting Strome. It started the mess of trades and has sent us towards another rebuild/retool.
A lot of our issues go back to drafting
strome.
 
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RemoAZ

Let it burn
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Yes he had a poor start to his NHL career. He was rushed. Still, he has good size, is a good skater and has good vision and hockey IQ. If he develops physically (he was a pudding boy when drafted) he could meet his high projections.

Those are the kind of guys we need to take a chance on if we can get them for some of the vets on the roster. Former high pick with potentially some upside. It's not like our prospect pool is stocked and we know we're f***ed on picks coming up.
 
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XX

Waiting for Ishbia
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1. Niklas Hjalmarsson
2. Derek Stepan
3. Antti Raanta
4. Jordan Oesterle
5. Nick Schmaltz
6. Phil Kessel

...to show for:

1. 2016 2nd
3. 2017 1st
8. 2017 1st
9. 2020 1st
11 2018 2nd


12 2020 2nd
13 2021 1st

Chayka took over in 16-17' (though not full autonomy until a year later) so it would be more accurate to say he churned the roster and was directly involved in expending/misallocating the bolded picks while being fined the latter two for gross negligence.

Including guys like Martinook and Murphy is something Craig Harris would do ;)

Domi, Duclair, Strome, DeAngelo have all gone on to be useful-to-very-good players elsewhere. The coaches and GM share in that. The inability to correctly grade (and coach) talent outside of the draft is basically the signature hallmark of Chayka's tenure. It's like having the worst pro scouting in the league.
 
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Jakey53

Registered User
Aug 27, 2011
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Those are the kind of guys we need to take a chance on if we can get them for some of the vets on the roster. Former high pick with potentially some upside. It's not like our prospect pool is stocked and we know we're f***ed on picks coming up.
Like who?
 

Jakey53

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Aug 27, 2011
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Yes he had a poor start to his NHL career. He was rushed. Still, he has good size, is a good skater and has good vision and hockey IQ. If he develops physically (he was a pudding boy when drafted) he could meet his high projections.
Have you watched him play? I'm curious because if he has all these attributes he would be on the Sabre's roster would he not? He is still young and a C so he could be worth the gamble.
 
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Jamieh

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Apr 25, 2012
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Have you watched him play? I'm curious because if he has all these attributes he would be on the Sabre's roster would he not? He is still young and a C so he could be worth the gamble.
He just needs a chance and some better coaching. Wait a second.
 
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rt

The Kinder, Gentler Version
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Chayka took over in 16-17' (though not full autonomy until a year later) so it would be more accurate to say he churned the roster and was directly involved in expending/misallocating the bolded picks while being fined the latter two for gross negligence.

Including guys like Martinook and Murphy is something Craig Harris would do ;)

Domi, Duclair, Strome, DeAngelo have all gone on to be useful-to-very-good players elsewhere. The coaches and GM share in that. The inability to correctly grade (and coach) talent outside of the draft is basically the signature hallmark of Chayka's tenure. It's like having the worst pro scouting in the league.
I’d happily trade Hjalmarsson for Murphy. So how is it disingenuous to add him? I’d happily trade Kessel, Stepan or Raanta for Martinook. Hell, I’d trade all three of them for Martinook. These are some of Chayka’s most major acquisitions and I prefer a single 4th liner he traded to any of them, and all of them.

Murphy and Martinook were young and possessed upside when traded. I left out Samuelssom and Moroz for a reason. Gormley isn’t there either. Neither Murphy nor Martinook are busts and both are now better than their return. This is perfectly valid.

And sniping minor points isn’t arguing. Why don’t you actually provide a counter to the theme of the argument rather than the minutiae?
 

Heldig

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Have you watched him play? I'm curious because if he has all these attributes he would be on the Sabre's roster would he not? He is still young and a C so he could be worth the gamble.
He was brilliant at the WJHC but was rushed on to the Sabres roster. The kid famously could not do a single pull up at the combine. He got by on talent alone. Definately worth a gamble IMO.
 

rt

The Kinder, Gentler Version
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He was brilliant at the WJHC but was rushed on to the Sabres roster. The kid famously could not do a single pull up at the combine. He got by on talent alone. Definately worth a gamble IMO.
I think the idea of overcooking a prospect or bringing one along too slowly and it hurting their development is a total myth. I don’t think it’s ever actually happened.

It I was in charge, Hayton would have spent last year in the OHL.

Mittelstadt would have spent at least two but maybe three years in college, if it were up to me.
 

SniperHF

Rejecting Reports
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So don’t judge his tenure based on the guys he shipped out versus the guys he brought in, don’t judge him on the team’s results (P%) and don’t judge him on how the team is positioned today?

No, just judge him by all those things and the realities of having to ice a hockey team with more than his own Be a GM mode bubble to consider.

There was zero chance we were going into the next season with no goalie and center depth worse than the 2015 tank team. It wasn't happening. Any GM was going to spend futures to get something. This market was not prime for a tank season that year and we had young players to protect with a roster so they could develop.

Same way I don't really blame Chayka or even Tocchet primarily for the Kessel disaster, I watched him drag ass for 70 games. Sure Tocchet coulda done better (like forcing him to sit while injured) , Chayka could have vetoed the deal before it happened, but in the end Phil is a 10 year pro and he should have sucked less under any circumstances.

I have a pretty similar take on Maloney, even when public opinion 'round here kinda turned on him a couple years ago so it shouldn't be too surprising :).

Domi, Duclair, Strome, DeAngelo have all gone on to be useful-to-very-good players elsewhere. The coaches and GM share in that. The inability to correctly grade (and coach) talent outside of the draft is basically the signature hallmark of Chayka's tenure. It's like having the worst pro scouting in the league.

I think this along with the draft pick penalties, lack of pro development, and signing some big contracts too early if they don't pan out will define his legacy here. Not the wheeling and dealing directly and where our assets are now vs then.
 

AZviaNJ

“Sure as shit want to F*** Coyote fans.”
Mar 31, 2011
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It's evident to me that Chayka, at some point, switched from rebuild mode to compete now mode. I am just wondering if that was his decision or Barroway's. I'm not sure at this point that Barroway was as good of an owner as is a tenet around here.
Barroway's biggest accomplishment was that he ran LeBlanc and friends out of town. Then he botched the Doan situation and everything seemed to spiral downward from there.

Separately, I didn't realize LeBlanc was named President of Business Operations with the Sens.
 
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XX

Waiting for Ishbia
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I’d happily trade Hjalmarsson for Murphy. So how is it disingenuous to add him?

I wouldn't assign a guy that has been drafted and developed well prior to a GM's arrival a pick value and then include it in a tally for optics value. Murphy has never been better than Hjalmarsson. He was an okay use of a late first. Martinook never became the player he was drafted to be but has had a nice career as a solid bottom six guy. These are replacement level players and the trades did not represent a catastrophic misuse of players or assets. They represent an opportunity cost of not drafting someone better but that's not really Chayka's problem.

If you pursued all asset flips to their conclusion, you would need to account for things like the Kuemper trade and Demers for McGinn. Trading the 2017 picks looks prudent at this moment, given the weakness of the draft and POJ not really taking that next step (but also not busting). Even Martinook was eventually turned into Hinostroza, Oesterle, and the very necessary at the time Hossa contract. A 2nd round pick terminating into just Oesterle 8 years later is not a super useful observation.

And if we're talking about completely capturing a GM's ability to spend assets to find talent, you would also have to factor in his draft picks, which have been pretty solid. The list looks less offensive with Keller and Chychrun on it. Garland too, since he was directly responsible for that pick.

He left the organization in worse shape for a variety of reasons but the roster is more talented I'd say. His churn was okay overall. They're not at all positioned like a young team should be but the mandate may have simply been to make the playoffs and go for it ASAP. If Soderstrom, Hayton, Maccelli, Jenik etc... pan out then I think he gets another job, depending on how teams feel about the Meruelo Coyotes and his exit.

I’d happily trade Kessel, Stepan or Raanta for Martinook. Hell, I’d trade all three of them for Martinook.

These are some of Chayka’s most major acquisitions and I prefer a single 4th liner he traded to any of them, and all of them.

That would make the team worse now and in the past. Raanta has been a very good goalie, Stepan has been a solid all around center, sometimes even good. This is an emotional argument that really only makes any sort of sense for Kessel but we've beaten the shit out of that dead horse.
 
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