2020 Off Season Discussion Part IV

[Jakey53]

Mittelstadt

Who do WE trade. You said vets.

 

[rt]

I wouldn't assign a guy that has been drafted and developed well prior to a GM's arrival a pick value and then include it in a tally for optics value. Murphy has never been better than Hjalmarsson. He was an okay use of a late first. Martinook never became the player he was drafted to be but has had a nice career as a solid bottom six guy. These are replacement level players and the trades did not represent a catastrophic misuse of players or assets. They represent an opportunity cost of not drafting someone better but that's not really Chayka's problem.

If you pursued all asset flips to their conclusion, you would need to account for things like the Kuemper trade and Demers for McGinn. Trading the 2017 picks looks prudent at this moment, given the weakness of the draft and POJ not really taking that next step (but also not busting). Even Martinook was eventually turned into Hinostroza, Oesterle, and the very necessary at the time Hossa contract. A 2nd round pick terminating into just Oesterle 8 years later is not a super useful observation.

And if we're talking about completely capturing a GM's ability to spend assets to find talent, you would also have to factor in his draft picks, which have been pretty solid. The list looks less offensive with Keller and Chychrun on it. Garland too, since he was directly responsible for that pick.

He left the organization in worse shape for a variety of reasons but the roster is more talented I'd say. His churn was okay overall. They're not at all positioned like a young team should be but the mandate may have simply been to make the playoffs and go for it ASAP. If Soderstrom, Hayton, Maccelli, Jenik etc... pan out then I think he gets another job, depending on how teams feel about the Meruelo Coyotes and his exit.





That would make the team worse now and in the past. Raanta has been a very good goalie, Stepan has been a solid all around center, sometimes even good. This is an emotional argument that really only makes any sort of sense for Kessel but we've beaten the shit out of that dead horse.

Kessel, Stepan, Goligoski, Demers, and Raanta are basically worthless, and untradeable. Nobody wants any of them re-signed. We didn't pick until the 5th round. We're over the cap. The team had the 10th worst record in the NHL last season, and the 4th worst over the last four years. The future isn't any brighter than when he found the team and the team isn't any better. The last four years were a complete waste of time and the team is basically where it was when he found it; in the basement with almost nothing going for it.

 

[lanky]

Kessel, Stepan, Goligoski, Demers, and Raanta are basically worthless, and untradeable. Nobody wants any of them re-signed. We didn't pick until the 5th round. We're over the cap. The team had the 10th worst record in the NHL last season, and the 4th worst over the last four years. The future isn't any brighter than when he found the team and the team isn't any better. The last four years were a complete waste of time and the team is basically where it was when he found it; in the basement with almost nothing going for it.

Positivity.

Kachinas

Rich owner

Still in the desert

 

[KG]

I have a pretty similar take on Maloney, even when public opinion 'round here kinda turned on him a couple years ago so it shouldn't be too surprising .

I don’t think Maloney gets enough credit. I would have liked to see what he could have done without NHL ownership. And he correctly called for a rebuild with the Yandle trade. His drafting record was not good but during his tenure we had 1 euro scout. So the operation was thin. Biggest knock against Maloney is Strome pick.

 

[Jagged Ice]

Biggest knock against Maloney is Strome pick.

Strome and Marner were pretty even to go third. Most of the experts had Strome going third. He was a center with good size, unlike Marner. I don't think Maloney made a mistake at the time., and I don't think Maloney would have sent him to Chicago when Chayka did. Chayka just had to move guys (Domi) he didn't pick. Marner would never have put up 61 points in 2016 playing for the Coyotes and he definitely wouldn't have put up 94 in 2018-19.

 

[KG]

I know Strome was a consensus pick but he still blew a #3 overall which ususally guarantees a franchise player or top liner

 

[XX]

I know Strome was a consensus pick but he still blew a #3 overall which ususally guarantees a franchise player or top liner

Blew it by trading the player (likely on Tocchet's recommendation) after the player became a 1C in the AHL without giving him a chance in the NHL. Strome immediately went on to success elsewhere.

Picking him wasn't the problem.

 

[KG]

Blew it by trading the player (likely on Tocchet's recommendation) after the player became a 1C in the AHL without giving him a chance in the NHL. Strome immediately went on to success elsewhere.

Picking him wasn't the problem.

he bas not maintained success in Chicago worthy of his draft position.

 

[XX]

he bas not maintained success in Chicago worthy of his draft position.

... 89 points in 116 games is .76 PPG.

He'd be 8 points ahead of the Coyotes leading scorer this year if he was healthy enough to play 70 games. 15 points ahead of the Coyote's leading scorer in 18-19 (Keller), 25 if you use his actual scoring clip from that season.

The player is not the problem in this situation.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

... 89 points in 116 games is .76 PPG.

He'd be 8 points ahead of the Coyotes leading scorer this year if he was healthy enough to play 70 games. 15 points ahead of the Coyote's leading scorer in 18-19 (Keller), 25 if you use his actual scoring clip from that season.

The player is not the problem in this situation.

He was playing with DeBrincat and Kane when he put up most of those points. His numbers are inflated.

Schmaltz is .68 PPG playing with much worse forwards. I think the players are pretty close to equal.

I expect Stromes production to come down. It looks like the Hawks have another 3rd overall pick who has beat him out for the 2C role.

 

[Jamieh]

Blew it by trading the player (likely on Tocchet's recommendation) after the player became a 1C in the AHL without giving him a chance in the NHL. Strome immediately went on to success elsewhere.

Picking him wasn't the problem.

Redo that draft and it's unlikely Strome goes in the top 10. It was a bad pick then and it looks worse by the year.

 

[Schemp]

Kessel, Stepan, Goligoski, Demers, and Raanta are basically worthless, and untradeable. Nobody wants any of them re-signed. We didn't pick until the 5th round. We're over the cap. The team had the 10th worst record in the NHL last season, and the 4th worst over the last four years. The future isn't any brighter than when he found the team and the team isn't any better. The last four years were a complete waste of time and the team is basically where it was when he found it; in the basement with almost nothing going for it.

So you are saying you like our chances for next season?
A real underdog!

 

[CLW]

Kessel, Stepan, Goligoski, Demers, and Raanta are basically worthless, and untradeable. Nobody wants any of them re-signed. We didn't pick until the 5th round. We're over the cap. The team had the 10th worst record in the NHL last season, and the 4th worst over the last four years. The future isn't any brighter than when he found the team and the team isn't any better. The last four years were a complete waste of time and the team is basically where it was when he found it; in the basement with almost nothing going for it.

The lack of a solid base for this franchise has been evident since forever.

If current ownership/management does not start with the fundamentals and build a solid base to build on this franchise will just keep shooting itself in the foot.

GMBA has one job. Build a solid scouting foundation [I'm already doubting this], draft well, develop well, have the structure to support the players from pick to ready NHL player. Have top coaches in the AHL/NHL who can improve the new players and make them NHL regulars. Maintain a healthy, positive and competitive spirit throughout the organization.

Ownership must find a settled long terms solution for the arena etc.

I've watched this franchise f*** it up for 25 years or whatever. No one ever had a long term vision and the balls, and smarts, to pull it off.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

Redo that draft and it's unlikely Strome goes in the top 10. It was a bad pick then and it looks worse by the year.

He definitely does not go top 10.

McDavid
Eichel
Marner
Raantanen
Barzal
Chabot
Aho
Werenski
Provorov
Boeser
Connor
Meier

Then you have Stromes tier with Hanifin, DeBrusk, Konecny, Samsonov, White. Out of this 6 it's unclear which is going to be the best.

It was a franchise defining draft and we blew it. We prioritized C so we ignored Stromes skating and that he was sheltered behind McDavid in Erie.

If we took BPA at 3 and later prioritized C we would've had Marner and then Aho with either the Merkley or Fischer picks.

 

[CLW]

Not only 2015, we blew 2020 too out of stupidity. Better luck in 2025 (or whenever the next great deep draft year comes along).

 

[Heldig]

Redo that draft and it's unlikely Strome goes in the top 10. It was a bad pick then and it looks worse by the year.

Yes but he was consensus top 4. Unfortunately, the Coyotes ran out of patience.

Personally, I was leery about Strome's skating and that Marne's' game would not translate to the bigger, faster NHL. I wanted the team to trade down to grab one of the 3 D (I wanted Werenski or Provorov).

 

[CLW]

Yes but he was consensus top 4. Unfortunately, the Coyotes ran out of patience.

Personally, I was leery about Strome's skating and that Marne's' game would not translate to the bigger, faster NHL. I wanted the team to trade down to grab one of the 3 D (I wanted Werenski or Provorov).

Yeah, there's a crucial difference between consensus and unanimous. Personally I don't put much stock in consensus when it comes to drafting.

 

[Jamieh]

Yes but he was consensus top 4. Unfortunately, the Coyotes ran out of patience.

Personally, I was leery about Strome's skating and that Marne's' game would not translate to the bigger, faster NHL. I wanted the team to trade down to grab one of the 3 D (I wanted Werenski or Provorov).

It doesn't matter if most people would have made the same mistake, its still a mistake. The GM'S job is to not make that mistake with such a crucial pick. As an easy example the following year almost everyone else had Poolparty at number 3 yet Columbus picked Dubois.

 

[Heldig]

Yeah, there's a crucial difference between consensus and unanimous. Personally I don't put much stock in consensus when it comes to drafting.

Yes but it would have been shocking if Strome fell below 6th. Cant see both Carolina and New Jersey passing on him (5 and 6th picks). In 11 pre draft rankings he was rated; 5, 5, 3, 3, 4, 3, 7, 3. 4, 4, and 4. Combination bad luck, poor development, not having a coach that would play to his strengths, and a trigger happy GM. Almost every draft some top rated guy does not pan out.

 

[Heldig]

It doesn't matter if most people would have made the same mistake, its still a mistake. The GM'S job is to not make that mistake with such a crucial pick. As an easy example the following year almost everyone else had Poolparty at number 3 yet Columbus picked Dubois.

I am not arguing that- in hindsight - it was a mistake. I even stated I would have trade down because I was worried about his skating.

 

[XX]

It was a franchise defining draft and we blew it. We prioritized C so we ignored Stromes skating and that he was sheltered behind McDavid in Erie.

Strome's production, size, and skill put him in a very, very special cohort. Ryan Johansen had just popped off for 71 points in 82 games with the Jackets. Many teams would have considered Dylan BPA. Even with his 'lagging' we're still talking about a 6'3 23yo that would instantly be the best center on the Coyotes.

The problem is with how Duclair, Domi, DeAngelo, Strome etc... were handled by the organization. It's not with the players. Scouts will tell you there's only a couple guys per draft that can survive regardless of coaching and development. The Coyotes have been very, very bad at the latter two now for quite some time. Development is slowly inching along with Tucson but the big elephant in the room still remains.

 

[Sinurgy]

I don’t think Maloney gets enough credit. I would have liked to see what he could have done without NHL ownership. And he correctly called for a rebuild with the Yandle trade. His drafting record was not good but during his tenure we had 1 euro scout. So the operation was thin. Biggest knock against Maloney is Strome pick.

I think biggest knock against Maloney was getting out tanked by Buffalo.

 

[Gwyddbwyll]

It was a franchise defining draft and we blew it. We prioritized C so we ignored Stromes skating and that he was sheltered behind McDavid in Erie.

The "sheltered" position was a valid concern and a topic of debate at the time and I remember he conclusively put it to bed. It wasn't a factor. He continued to dominate at the same pace or better when McDavid was out of the team (WJC's I think?). And of course he did it again the next year with no McDavid.

 

[TheLegend]

Time for a new thread......

2020 Off Season Discussion Part V