Red Sox/MLB 2020 Hot Stove VII - The Mookie dilemma: Red Sox face franchise-changing decision

[smithformeragent]

I wonder if the return for Betts exceeds the penalty the Sox might get from MLB.

 

[DKH]

I wonder if the return for Betts exceeds the penalty the Sox might get from MLB.

They aren’t getting much if anything

Martinez said there was none of that as far as he knows and he said since he was a DH he would know he was in clubhouse

Roenicke said he’s been in baseball 40 yrs and no bleeping way he would be part of that or allow it - he’d quit

Word is exonerated but you never know

Someone fo a study on
Gregorious
Hicks
LeMahieu
Voit
Andujar
Urshela
Tauchman

look at prior 2 years wherever play then with Yankees and tell me they ain’t cheating with signs

 

[Gator Mike]

Will be interesting if Verdugo ends up in this

I'd be really surprised.

And if he is included, I wouldn't expect to get much else.

 

[CDJ]

I'd be really surprised.

And if he is included, I wouldn't expect to get much else.

I think Verdugo and Ruiz would be a good haul

 

[Fenway]

Here is an Astros fan with way too much time on his hands

Astros fan logs trash can bangs from 2017 - HardballTalk | NBC Sports

A fascinating and no doubt time consuming research project was released this morning. An Astros fan by the name of Tony Adams went through every Astros home game in the 2017 season and logged trash can bangs. Which, as you know, was the mechanism via which Astros players in the clubhouse signaled to hitters which pitch was coming.

Adams listened to every pitch from the Astros’ 2017 home games and made a note of any banging noise he could detect. There were 20 home games for which he did not have access to video. There were three “home” games which took place at Tropicana Field in St. Petersburg, Florida due to the team being displaced by hurricane Harvey and for which, obviously, the Astros’ camera setup from Minute Maid Park would not have been applicable.

Adams logged over 8,200 pitches and found banging before over 1,100 of those pitches. He graphed which players got the most bangs during their at bats. Marwin Gonzalez got the most, with bangs coming before 147 of 776 pitches seen, followed by George Springer, who got bangs on 139 of 933. José Altuve had the least among regulars, with only 24 bangs in 866 pitches. One gets the sense that, perhaps, he felt that the banging would interfere with his normal pitch recognition process or something. Either way it’s worth noting that a lack of banging was also signal. Specifically, for a fastball. As such, Astros hitters were helped on a much higher percentage of pitches than what is depicted in the graphs themselves.

 

[KrejciMVP]

Here is an Astros fan with way too much time on his hands

Astros fan logs trash can bangs from 2017 - HardballTalk | NBC Sports

A fascinating and no doubt time consuming research project was released this morning. An Astros fan by the name of Tony Adams went through every Astros home game in the 2017 season and logged trash can bangs. Which, as you know, was the mechanism via which Astros players in the clubhouse signaled to hitters which pitch was coming.

Adams listened to every pitch from the Astros’ 2017 home games and made a note of any banging noise he could detect. There were 20 home games for which he did not have access to video. There were three “home” games which took place at Tropicana Field in St. Petersburg, Florida due to the team being displaced by hurricane Harvey and for which, obviously, the Astros’ camera setup from Minute Maid Park would not have been applicable.

Adams logged over 8,200 pitches and found banging before over 1,100 of those pitches. He graphed which players got the most bangs during their at bats. Marwin Gonzalez got the most, with bangs coming before 147 of 776 pitches seen, followed by George Springer, who got bangs on 139 of 933. José Altuve had the least among regulars, with only 24 bangs in 866 pitches. One gets the sense that, perhaps, he felt that the banging would interfere with his normal pitch recognition process or something. Either way it’s worth noting that a lack of banging was also signal. Specifically, for a fastball. As such, Astros hitters were helped on a much higher percentage of pitches than what is depicted in the graphs themselves.

amazing

 

[DKH]

Here is an Astros fan with way too much time on his hands

Astros fan logs trash can bangs from 2017 - HardballTalk | NBC Sports

A fascinating and no doubt time consuming research project was released this morning. An Astros fan by the name of Tony Adams went through every Astros home game in the 2017 season and logged trash can bangs. Which, as you know, was the mechanism via which Astros players in the clubhouse signaled to hitters which pitch was coming.

Adams listened to every pitch from the Astros’ 2017 home games and made a note of any banging noise he could detect. There were 20 home games for which he did not have access to video. There were three “home” games which took place at Tropicana Field in St. Petersburg, Florida due to the team being displaced by hurricane Harvey and for which, obviously, the Astros’ camera setup from Minute Maid Park would not have been applicable.

Adams logged over 8,200 pitches and found banging before over 1,100 of those pitches. He graphed which players got the most bangs during their at bats. Marwin Gonzalez got the most, with bangs coming before 147 of 776 pitches seen, followed by George Springer, who got bangs on 139 of 933. José Altuve had the least among regulars, with only 24 bangs in 866 pitches. One gets the sense that, perhaps, he felt that the banging would interfere with his normal pitch recognition process or something. Either way it’s worth noting that a lack of banging was also signal. Specifically, for a fastball. As such, Astros hitters were helped on a much higher percentage of pitches than what is depicted in the graphs themselves.

How about the buzzers ? Clearly Altuve had that. No bleeping way he didn’t

 

[sarge88]

Who are they going to spend money on though? Their farm system stinks and only Devers figures to get paid big money from this group. Might as well spend it on a guy you know produces like Betts

Legit point.

But they could also let him walk, do the cap re-set and get some pitching in 2021.

 

[Gator Mike]

When media members have conflicting sources...

 

[Pia8988]

Padres and Dodgers will both get him and share custody.

 

[CDJ]

If they move Betts and sign Puig to a cheap 1 yr deal that would be a fun rollercoaster. It gives them another outfielder with some pop...

 

[McGarnagle]

If they move Betts and sign Puig to a cheap 1 yr deal that would be a fun rollercoaster. It gives them another outfielder with some pop...

I honestly would love Puig.

 

[Smitty93]

You know, the closer this gets to the end, the more depressing it is. It's funny how Mookie has talked about how he's taken emotions out of the decision, and it's strictly business because I've tried to do the same thing. I think we all know that the smart move is to trade him, but it doesn't really make it any easier.

You look at the homegrown players on this team, and so many of them were top prospects from the start (1st round picks/major international signings), but Betts was in a different category. Despite being a 5th round pick, they only signed him at the last minute because another player they wanted decided to go to college. He was awful his first year, but I remember seeing something about how there were positive signs, but his power just sucked. He came back the next year, and was amazing because his power finally showed up. He managed to get into the bottom of the top 100 prospect lists, but he was still fairly unheralded. Go take a look at SoxProspects Rankings history, and he shows up in the top 20 at #10 in Fall 2013, is still there by Spring 2014, and is up to #1 by Summer 2014. He had an incredible meteoric rise where he went from low A to the MLB in two years.

This is a player they got incredibly lucky with, and it's a shame that he's probably going to end up playing for another team for the majority of his career. That should NEVER happen with a homegrown star player, and it's frankly embarrassing. It's not going to be the end of the world, but you just hate to see it end this way.

 

[McGarnagle]

You know, the closer this gets to the end, the more depressing it is. It's funny how Mookie has talked about how he's taken emotions out of the decision, and it's strictly business because I've tried to do the same thing. I think we all know that the smart move is to trade him, but it doesn't really make it any easier.

You look at the homegrown players on this team, and so many of them were top prospects from the start (1st round picks/major international signings), but Betts was in a different category. Despite being a 5th round pick, they only signed him at the last minute because another player they wanted decided to go to college. He was awful his first year, but I remember seeing something about how there were positive signs, but his power just sucked. He came back the next year, and was amazing because his power finally showed up. He managed to get into the bottom of the top 100 prospect lists, but he was still fairly unheralded. Go take a look at SoxProspects Rankings history, and he shows up in the top 20 at #10 in Fall 2013, is still there by Spring 2014, and is up to #1 by Summer 2014. He had an incredible meteoric rise where he went from low A to the MLB in two years.

This is a player they got incredibly lucky with, and it's a shame that he's probably going to end up playing for another team for the majority of his career. That should NEVER happen with a homegrown star player, and it's frankly embarrassing. It's not going to be the end of the world, but you just hate to see it end this way.

And he was a 2nd baseman who we thought would never make it because he would be blocked by Pedroia (lol). It does suck that after all that development and watching a guy who was a real underdog and a good guy grow into an MVP and an elite right fielder, he's just going to coldly go to the market and walk out on us. But I get it, why wouldn't he maximize his value as a free agent? I just wish he'd realize he loves Boston and take a discount - or even sign at current market value a year ahead of schedule

 

[LouJersey]

That contract offer is insulting when compared to what the top players are now making.

 

[bbfan419]

That's garbage. You walk away then and deal him at the deadline. He's a top five player in all of baseball and you're not getting any of the cream of the crop? Bloom better stand firm, if his first major move is dealing Betts for a 5th, 8th and 12th prospect and middle of the rotation starter then he's in over his head.

Agree SD can screw off if all their top prospects are off the table, should be Pinto, Abrams and one of Campusano/Trammel and a major leaguer say Lucchesi and Myers

 

[bbfan419]

Merloni is hitting the nail on the head.

They have a good enough lineup with or without Betts.

Their success will come down to Sale and Price.

A lot of this with Betts is just rotten timing. Can’t go back and undo the Price, Sale, Evoldi, and Pedroia contracts at this point. They’re saddled with those contracts.

Chaim Bloom didn’t back himself into this corner, but it’s his job to build a club that can compete long term. He’s got to play the hand he’s dealt.

Pedroia I think will retire which helps out the Sox.

 

[bbfan419]

I guess Buster thinks the Dodgers are a good shot to get him...

Having the Dodgers and Padres division rivals both after Betts is a good thing for the RedSox.

 

[Gator Mike]

From a Red Sox perspective, I think the interesting part of this tweet is who is not included in this lineup.

 

[DKH]

I’m LA my offer is Pederson, Ruiz, and a young P prospect like Tony Gonsolin or Josiah Gray

Bloom should try for Verdugo & someone like Jeter Downs

 

[Smitty93]

And he was a 2nd baseman who we thought would never make it because he would be blocked by Pedroia (lol). It does suck that after all that development and watching a guy who was a real underdog and a good guy grow into an MVP and an elite right fielder, he's just going to coldly go to the market and walk out on us. But I get it, why wouldn't he maximize his value as a free agent? I just wish he'd realize he loves Boston and take a discount - or even sign at current market value a year ahead of schedule

Forgot to even mention the 2B part. He had just 50 games in the outfield before he got to the Majors, and he's now, deservedly, won 4 straight Gold Gloves.

 

[CDJ]

Generally speaking a good way to evaluate players at the low levels is to see how much they control the strike zone. Mookie was drafted as a SS and couldnt have weighed more than 145-150 lbs, but in his first full season he walked more than he struck out. I didn’t think he would be able to impact the ball but then he added muscle and turned into an absolute superstar the following year. He Hasn’t looked back.

and to think if senquez Golson didn’t want to play football we wouldn’t even be having these discussions

 

[RockLobster]

Much like it's been pointed out around the internet, I would imagine a decision has to be made soon.

Between the Dodgers and the Padres, I hope it's the Dodgers. I think they would get the best overall package, and it would be (again, as pointed out) a cleaner trade.

Just hope that it doesn't continue getting dragged out, that the Red Sox and the Padres/Dodgers realize they need to come to some sort of resolution on this.

 

[Gator Mike]

 

[YouTakeTheVan]

Go take a look at SoxProspects Rankings history, and he shows up in the top 20 at #10 in Fall 2013

SoxProspects dropped him from the top 40 ... maybe top 60 ... at one point.