Thaaaaat makes much more sense. I thought those were a bit low for Marty. Oops.MS is Sundin, but yes - everything that DATW said.
It never ceases to amuse me to see how much stock people put in something as absolutely pointless as the hockey hall of fame.
That's a good comparison. BrindAmour and Sundin both played in the high scoring era with Gretzky and Lemieux. Alfredssons time came during the dead puck era. Style of play had a big effect on the league.Each player's 12 best rankings in points per game with a minimum of 27 games played.
Alfredsson finished 3rd, 4th, 10th, 15th x2, 16th x2, 23rd, 25th, 29th, 34th and 39th in his ten best seasons.
St. Louis finished 10th, 13th x4, 17th, 18th, 20th x2, 24th x2, 26th and 29th.
Brind'amour finished 23rd, 24th x4, 32nd, 46th, 50th x2, 59th x2, 62nd, 81st.
In other words, it's a good way to compare players relative to others in their era. Brind'amour may have had leadership qualities and the team accolade of a Cup, but he was never a point-producer on the same level as Alfie or MSL.
Agreed, though I don't think Sundin necessarily should've been in the HHoF - but he was a first ballot, so therefore Alfie should be in by now as well.To me, Alfredsson and Sundin are equal.
Rank | Player | GP | G | Pts | GPG | Rank | Player | GP | G | Pts | PPG |
1 | Alfredsson | 55 | 26 | 44 | 0.47 | 1 | Forsberg | 94 | 41 | 116 | 1.23 |
2 | Jagr | 53 | 25 | 64 | 0.47 | 2 | Jagr | 53 | 25 | 64 | 1.21 |
3 | Forsberg | 94 | 41 | 116 | 0.44 | 3 | Sakic | 108 | 46 | 112 | 1.04 |
4 | Sakic | 108 | 46 | 112 | 0.43 | 4 | Kamensky | 36 | 14 | 36 | 1.00 |
5 | Selanne | 33 | 14 | 24 | 0.42 | 5 | Modano | 91 | 31 | 87 | 0.96 |
6 | Guerin | 38 | 16 | 24 | 0.42 | 6 | Fedorov | 94 | 31 | 86 | 0.91 |
7 | Bondra | 34 | 14 | 22 | 0.41 | 7 | Yzerman | 88 | 28 | 78 | 0.89 |
8 | S.Kozlov | 66 | 26 | 42 | 0.39 | 8 | Sundin | 55 | 20 | 48 | 0.87 |
9 | Kamensky | 36 | 14 | 36 | 0.39 | 9 | Weight | 56 | 16 | 48 | 0.86 |
10 | S. Young | 71 | 27 | 48 | 0.38 | 10 | Turgeon | 55 | 14 | 46 | 0.84 |
11 | Recchi | 62 | 23 | 51 | 0.37 | 11 | Recchi | 62 | 23 | 51 | 0.82 |
12 | Hull | 98 | 36 | 80 | 0.37 | 12 | Hull | 98 | 36 | 80 | 0.82 |
13 | Sundin | 55 | 20 | 48 | 0.36 | 13 | Straka | 52 | 16 | 42 | 0.81 |
14 | Brind'Amour | 59 | 21 | 45 | 0.36 | 14 | Audette | 51 | 18 | 41 | 0.80 |
15 | Audette | 51 | 18 | 41 | 0.35 | 15 | Alfredsson | 55 | 26 | 44 | 0.80 |
Rank | Player | GP | G | Pts | GPG | Rank | Player | GP | G | Pts | PPG |
1 | Ovechkin | 58 | 31 | 61 | 0.53 | 1 | Crosby | 82 | 40 | 105 | 1.28 |
2 | Cammalleri | 32 | 17 | 32 | 0.53 | 2 | Malkin | 83 | 36 | 97 | 1.17 |
3 | Crosby | 82 | 40 | 105 | 0.49 | 3 | Giroux | 50 | 21 | 55 | 1.10 |
4 | Zetterberg | 107 | 52 | 109 | 0.49 | 4 | Ovechkin | 58 | 31 | 61 | 1.05 |
5 | Briere | 102 | 48 | 106 | 0.47 | 5 | Briere | 102 | 48 | 106 | 1.04 |
6 | Alfredsson | 52 | 24 | 52 | 0.46 | 6 | Zetterberg | 107 | 52 | 109 | 1.02 |
7 | E.Staal | 43 | 19 | 43 | 0.44 | 7 | Alfredsson | 52 | 24 | 52 | 1.00 |
8 | Iginla | 41 | 18 | 37 | 0.44 | 8 | Cammalleri | 32 | 17 | 32 | 1.00 |
9 | Malkin | 83 | 36 | 97 | 0.43 | 9 | Spezza | 50 | 16 | 50 | 1.00 |
10 | Marleau | 89 | 38 | 65 | 0.43 | 10 | E.Staal | 43 | 19 | 43 | 1.00 |
Total | 1157 | Fisher | 94 | Redden | 142 | |
Spezza | 215 | White | 77 | Karlsson | 40 | |
Heatley | 150 | Bonk | 56 | Chara | 39 | |
Yashin | 107 | Prospal | 37 | |||
Hossa | 37 | McEachern | 78 | |||
Raw | 509 | Arvedson | 36 | |||
Actual | 440 | Schaefer | 33 | |||
% | 38% | Havlat | 29 |
Player | Period | Points | EPC | EP% |
Alfredsson | Career | 1157 | 440 | 38% |
Alfredsson | 2006-09 | 353 | 226 | 64% |
Alfredsson | non-CASH | 804 | 214 | 27% |
H.Sedin | Career | 1070 | 745 | 70% |
D.Sedin | Career | 1041 | 745 | 72% |
Kariya | TS-era | 412 | 236 | 57% |
Datsyuk | Career | 918 | 412 | 45% |
St. Louis | Career | 1033 | 632 | 61% |
St. Louis | 2002-13 | 817 | 581 | 71% |
This is such an awesome post. Thank you for this.Alfredsson's third attempt to be inducted into the HHOF is on the 25th I believe. He could possibly even be inducted as sort of the headliner this year.
Here is more data to add the Alfredsson statistical repository.
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Some people have criticized his early postseasons, but they were actually pretty solid and a big part of the reason his totals went up later in his career is because his teammates started producing. Thus, Alfie's goals went down and his total points went up.
First 10 playoff series (1997 to end of 2003 2nd round), Min 30 GP:
Alfredsson was tied for first in GPG and tied for 14th in PPG.
11 playoff series from 2006-2013, min 30 GP[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Rank Player GP G Pts GPG Rank Player GP G Pts PPG 1 Alfredsson 55 26 44 0.47 1 Forsberg 94 41 116 1.23 2 Jagr 53 25 64 0.47 2 Jagr 53 25 64 1.21 3 Forsberg 94 41 116 0.44 3 Sakic 108 46 112 1.04 4 Sakic 108 46 112 0.43 4 Kamensky 36 14 36 1.00 5 Selanne 33 14 24 0.42 5 Modano 91 31 87 0.96 6 Guerin 38 16 24 0.42 6 Fedorov 94 31 86 0.91 7 Bondra 34 14 22 0.41 7 Yzerman 88 28 78 0.89 8 S.Kozlov 66 26 42 0.39 8 Sundin 55 20 48 0.87 9 Kamensky 36 14 36 0.39 9 Weight 56 16 48 0.86 10 S. Young 71 27 48 0.38 10 Turgeon 55 14 46 0.84 11 Recchi 62 23 51 0.37 11 Recchi 62 23 51 0.82 12 Hull 98 36 80 0.37 12 Hull 98 36 80 0.82 13 Sundin 55 20 48 0.36 13 Straka 52 16 42 0.81 14 Brind'Amour 59 21 45 0.36 14 Audette 51 18 41 0.80 15 Audette 51 18 41 0.35 15 Alfredsson 55 26 44 0.80
There are only 3 series missing out of his whole career: 2003 vs NJ (likely injured during 2003 playoffs - ice time crashed after 3rd game vs NYI), 2004 vs Tor and 2014 with Det (was injured).[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Rank Player GP G Pts GPG Rank Player GP G Pts PPG 1 Ovechkin 58 31 61 0.53 1 Crosby 82 40 105 1.28 2 Cammalleri 32 17 32 0.53 2 Malkin 83 36 97 1.17 3 Crosby 82 40 105 0.49 3 Giroux 50 21 55 1.10 4 Zetterberg 107 52 109 0.49 4 Ovechkin 58 31 61 1.05 5 Briere 102 48 106 0.47 5 Briere 102 48 106 1.04 6 Alfredsson 52 24 52 0.46 6 Zetterberg 107 52 109 1.02 7 E.Staal 43 19 43 0.44 7 Alfredsson 52 24 52 1.00 8 Iginla 41 18 37 0.44 8 Cammalleri 32 17 32 1.00 9 Malkin 83 36 97 0.43 9 Spezza 50 16 50 1.00 10 Marleau 89 38 65 0.43 10 E.Staal 43 19 43 1.00
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Point collaborations with teammates, full regular season career.
Raw is the total points those players scored with Alfredsson, Actual eliminates the following duplicates:[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Total 1157 Fisher 94 Redden 142 Spezza 215 White 77 Karlsson 40 Heatley 150 Bonk 56 Chara 39 Yashin 107 Prospal 37 Hossa 37 McEachern 78 Raw 509 Arvedson 36 Actual 440 Schaefer 33 % 38% Havlat 29
Alfredsson, Heatley & Spezza = 67 occurrence
Alfredsson, Yashin & Hossa = 1 occurrence
Alfredsson, Spezza & Hossa = 1 occurrence
Elite linemate collaborations (isolated and/or career):
Some will downplay Alfredsson's offensive numbers due to the CASH line time and ignore how often he played with average talents or below.[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Player Period Points EPC EP% Alfredsson Career 1157 440 38% Alfredsson 2006-09 353 226 64% Alfredsson non-CASH 804 214 27% H.Sedin Career 1070 745 70% D.Sedin Career 1041 745 72% Kariya TS-era 412 236 57% Datsyuk Career 918 412 45% St. Louis Career 1033 632 61% St. Louis 2002-13 817 581 71%
Alfredsson = Spezza, Heately, Yashin, Hossa
Sedins - I only counted their time together, though they also played with Naslund and Bertuzzi for significant periods (up to 100 combined points).
Kariya - isolated period is the moment Selanne was acquired and then traded.
Datsyuk = Zetterberg, Hull, Shanahan and Hossa.
St. Louis = Lecavalier, Richards and Stamkos.
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Earlier I posted a list that showed Alfredsson as being the 3rd leading scorer of the 2000's. It has been argued that list is arbitrary and perhaps players whose best 10 years didn't line up with an exact decade weren't represented. Here is a rolling list starting with player who started to appear on the top-10 list after the 1967 expansion (the first being Keon). The number beside their name is how of the rolling 10 year top-10 in points lists the players made:
17 – Gretzky
12 – Esposito, Dionne, Sakic
11 – Jagr, Francis
10 – Ratelle, Yzerman, Thornton
9 – Clarke, Lafleur, Perreault, Messier, Oates, Iginla
8 – Trottier, Kurri, Lemieux, Recchi, Sundin, Selanne
7 – Orr, Gilbert, Sittler, Stastny, Coffey, Hawerchuk, Br. Hull, Modano, Alfredsson, St. Louis
6 – Bossy, D.Savard, Turgeon
5 – Federko, Gilmour, Hossa
4 – Cournoyer, Lemaire, McDonald, Goulet, Nicholls, Kariya, Kovalchuk, Datsyuk, D.Sedin
3 – Hodge, Barber, Potvin, Middleton, Robitaille, Fleury, Forsberg, Naslund, Heatley, Getzlaf
2 – Keon, R.Martin, Shanahan, Lecavalier, B.Richards, E.Staal
1 - P.Martin, P.Mahovlich, Goring, MacLeish, Lysiak, Maruk, Taylor, B.Smith, Tkachuk, Palffy, Kovalev, Elias
Players you might be surprised to see did not make any list:
Andreychuk, Gartner, Roenick, Damphousse, Ciccarelli, Brind’Amour, Fedorov, Marleau, Nieuwendyk, G.Anderson, Whitney, Mullen, Verbeek, Weight, Mogilny, Bure, Lindros, Bellows, Hunter, Lafontaine, Larmer, Propp, Doan, Zetterberg, Muller, Tocchet, Arnott, Thomas, Broten, Spezza, Amonte, Roberts, Bondra, Ferraro, Leclair, Yashin, Hejduk, Tanguay
How I see it is he had a few allstar seasons because of his linemates but never separated himself from the pact in the other years. If he would have won a cup in 2007 or won one of the major awards like the Art Ross, the Hart, the Rocket, or finals mvp I think he would have been selected. His time will come eventually but was never on the same level as most who have gotten in over the last 5 years.
DA | 2009 | 73% | MSL | 2011 | 80% |
DA | 2006 | 69% | MSL | 2010 | 79% |
DA | 2008 | 66% | MSL | 2008 | 78% |
DA | 2001 | 51% | MSL | 2013 | 77% |
DA | 2007 | 48% | MSL | 2007 | 76% |
DA | 2010 | 41% | MSL | 2002 | 74% |
DA | 1997 | 39% | MSL | 2006 | 66% |
DA | 1998 | 38% | MSL | 2009 | 64% |
DA | 2012 | 32% | MSL | 2003 | 57% |
DA | 2003 | 30% | MSL | 2004 | 55% |
Avg | 49% | Avg | 71% |
Alfie will get in this year. Also I find it hilarious that as much reverence as Canadians have for hockey, we stuffed its hall of fame into a basement food court in a Toronto office tower.
At the end of the day it comes down to stats. If he warranted 1st line everything he would have played there his whole career. He had unbelievable chemistry with Heatley and Spezza but so would have other players seeing how playing with Spezza alone would gove them career highs. Looking at stats after the fact doesn't equate the same as production on the ice at the time. Alfie was a boarder line 1st line player most of his career but was an excellent 2nd liner.A major individual award certainly would have helped get him in quicker, but he was easily on the same level as many who have gotten in or are about to get in. If you look closer at some of the players who have won the Art Ross (and other trophies that typically follow), it was quite a production to help win them that trophy.
- being put on a loaded line with other elite producers
- completely abandoning defensive play and hemorrhaging goals against while challenging for top-10's
- getting among the PP time in the league
- getting an absurd amount of offensive zone starts
- being in a weak division and beating up on it
- being on a terrible team with nothing to play for... except doing everything it can to win you a scoring title
Alfredsson played the first half of his career with a defensive team and the other elite forward was typically anchoring another line (Yashin or Hossa). The team won a lot of games, it didn't work to inflate anybody's point totals. Look at those elite linemate lists for guys like St. Louis and the Sedins where they played most of their careers with elite linemates 70% of the time based on points. You want to see how Alfredsson's highest EPC% seasons compare?
He was typically used to create a line with guys like White, Fisher, etc. In the one season that he was above 70%, it was for Hartsburg... the guy who destroyed the team's offense with an amateurish breakout strategy and zero puck pressure.[TBODY] [/TBODY]
DA 2009 73% MSL 2011 80% DA 2006 69% MSL 2010 79% DA 2008 66% MSL 2008 78% DA 2001 51% MSL 2013 77% DA 2007 48% MSL 2007 76% DA 2010 41% MSL 2002 74% DA 1997 39% MSL 2006 66% DA 1998 38% MSL 2009 64% DA 2012 32% MSL 2003 57% DA 2003 30% MSL 2004 55% Avg 49% Avg 71%
At the end of the day it comes down to stats. If he warranted 1st line everything he would have played there his whole career. He had unbelievable chemistry with Heatley and Spezza but so would have other players seeing how playing with Spezza alone would gove them career highs. Looking at stats after the fact doesn't equate the same as production on the ice at the time. Alfie was a boarder line 1st line player most of his career but was an excellent 2nd liner.
At the end of the day it comes down to stats. If he warranted 1st line everything he would have played there his whole career. He had unbelievable chemistry with Heatley and Spezza but so would have other players seeing how playing with Spezza alone would gove them career highs. Looking at stats after the fact doesn't equate the same as production on the ice at the time. Alfie was a boarder line 1st line player most of his career but was an excellent 2nd liner.
At the end of the day it comes down to stats. If he warranted 1st line everything he would have played there his whole career. He had unbelievable chemistry with Heatley and Spezza but so would have other players seeing how playing with Spezza alone would gove them career highs. Looking at stats after the fact doesn't equate the same as production on the ice at the time. Alfie was a boarder line 1st line player most of his career but was an excellent 2nd liner.
Where'd you see this?Did not make the cut... a little disappointing but he will at some point.
I think you are confusing his impotence to his team and his stature around the league. He was a really all around good player for most of his career and played at an elite level while on the pizza line bit wasn't the player who made that line tick, it was Spezza. When state an opinion on this subject I do it unbiasedly as not to come off as a homer. Alfie was the type of player every team wants and needs and is deserving of the nod eventually there is a reason he has not been inducted which is because of self accomplishments from a league wide stand point. He needed more hardware to get in early and in my opinion was just not seen around the league as best of the best.Come on, an excellent 2nd liner? I'm far from Alfie's biggest fan on here, but during pretty much his entire time here he was the best or second best forward on the team...and for about a decade those were some of the top teams in the league. There's no way he was ever anything less than a 1st line caliber player until late in his career.
His stats are pretty good anyways. Whether it's this year or 1 or 2 down the road, he'll get in.