GDT: 2020 HHOF Inductions June 24 - Alfredsson's 4th attempt. Start post #206

[trentmccleary]

MS is Sundin, but yes - everything that DATW said.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

MS is Sundin, but yes - everything that DATW said.

Thaaaaat makes much more sense. I thought those were a bit low for Marty. Oops.

 

[Langdon Alger]

It never ceases to amuse me to see how much stock people put in something as absolutely pointless as the hockey hall of fame.

Not much else to talk about right now.

 

[Stylizer1]

Each player's 12 best rankings in points per game with a minimum of 27 games played.
Alfredsson finished 3rd, 4th, 10th, 15th x2, 16th x2, 23rd, 25th, 29th, 34th and 39th in his ten best seasons.
St. Louis finished 10th, 13th x4, 17th, 18th, 20th x2, 24th x2, 26th and 29th.
Brind'amour finished 23rd, 24th x4, 32nd, 46th, 50th x2, 59th x2, 62nd, 81st.

In other words, it's a good way to compare players relative to others in their era. Brind'amour may have had leadership qualities and the team accolade of a Cup, but he was never a point-producer on the same level as Alfie or MSL.

That's a good comparison. BrindAmour and Sundin both played in the high scoring era with Gretzky and Lemieux. Alfredssons time came during the dead puck era. Style of play had a big effect on the league.

Alfie will get in just after more deserving players do.

 

[Caeldan]

To me, Alfredsson and Sundin are equal.

Agreed, though I don't think Sundin necessarily should've been in the HHoF - but he was a first ballot, so therefore Alfie should be in by now as well.

Sometimes I think that little spat with Melnyk that caused him to end his career in Detroit actually hurt Alfie's chances to get into the hall. If he'd had a 20+ year career on a single team and produced numbers through it all, etc... it'd be something a bit more to stand on. Admittedly if it was an O6 team, yeah it would've been that much easier for him to get in but I think an argument could've been made given the era that part of his fame would be the loyalty to a franchise.

 

[trentmccleary]

Alfredsson's third attempt to be inducted into the HHOF is on the 25th I believe. He could possibly even be inducted as sort of the headliner this year.

Here is more data to add the Alfredsson statistical repository.
______________________________________________
Some people have criticized his early postseasons, but they were actually pretty solid and a big part of the reason his totals went up later in his career is because his teammates started producing. Thus, Alfie's goals went down and his total points went up.

First 10 playoff series (1997 to end of 2003 2nd round), Min 30 GP:
Alfredsson was tied for first in GPG and tied for 14th in PPG.

Rank	Player	GP	G	Pts	GPG	Rank	Player	GP	G	Pts	PPG
1	Alfredsson	55	26	44	0.47	1	Forsberg	94	41	116	1.23
2	Jagr	53	25	64	0.47	2	Jagr	53	25	64	1.21
3	Forsberg	94	41	116	0.44	3	Sakic	108	46	112	1.04
4	Sakic	108	46	112	0.43	4	Kamensky	36	14	36	1.00
5	Selanne	33	14	24	0.42	5	Modano	91	31	87	0.96
6	Guerin	38	16	24	0.42	6	Fedorov	94	31	86	0.91
7	Bondra	34	14	22	0.41	7	Yzerman	88	28	78	0.89
8	S.Kozlov	66	26	42	0.39	8	Sundin	55	20	48	0.87
9	Kamensky	36	14	36	0.39	9	Weight	56	16	48	0.86
10	S. Young	71	27	48	0.38	10	Turgeon	55	14	46	0.84
11	Recchi	62	23	51	0.37	11	Recchi	62	23	51	0.82
12	Hull	98	36	80	0.37	12	Hull	98	36	80	0.82
13	Sundin	55	20	48	0.36	13	Straka	52	16	42	0.81
14	Brind'Amour	59	21	45	0.36	14	Audette	51	18	41	0.80
15	Audette	51	18	41	0.35	15	Alfredsson	55	26	44	0.80

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

11 playoff series from 2006-2013, min 30 GP

Rank	Player	GP	G	Pts	GPG	Rank	Player	GP	G	Pts	PPG
1	Ovechkin	58	31	61	0.53	1	Crosby	82	40	105	1.28
2	Cammalleri	32	17	32	0.53	2	Malkin	83	36	97	1.17
3	Crosby	82	40	105	0.49	3	Giroux	50	21	55	1.10
4	Zetterberg	107	52	109	0.49	4	Ovechkin	58	31	61	1.05
5	Briere	102	48	106	0.47	5	Briere	102	48	106	1.04
6	Alfredsson	52	24	52	0.46	6	Zetterberg	107	52	109	1.02
7	E.Staal	43	19	43	0.44	7	Alfredsson	52	24	52	1.00
8	Iginla	41	18	37	0.44	8	Cammalleri	32	17	32	1.00
9	Malkin	83	36	97	0.43	9	Spezza	50	16	50	1.00
10	Marleau	89	38	65	0.43	10	E.Staal	43	19	43	1.00

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

There are only 3 series missing out of his whole career: 2003 vs NJ (likely injured during 2003 playoffs - ice time crashed after 3rd game vs NYI), 2004 vs Tor and 2014 with Det (was injured).
______________________________________________________________
Point collaborations with teammates, full regular season career.

Total	1157		Fisher	94	Redden	142
Spezza	215		White	77	Karlsson	40
Heatley	150		Bonk	56	Chara	39
Yashin	107		Prospal	37
Hossa	37		McEachern	78
Raw	509		Arvedson	36
Actual	440		Schaefer	33
%	38%		Havlat	29

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Raw is the total points those players scored with Alfredsson, Actual eliminates the following duplicates:
Alfredsson, Heatley & Spezza = 67 occurrence
Alfredsson, Yashin & Hossa = 1 occurrence
Alfredsson, Spezza & Hossa = 1 occurrence

Elite linemate collaborations (isolated and/or career):

Player	Period	Points	EPC	EP%
Alfredsson	Career	1157	440	38%
Alfredsson	2006-09	353	226	64%
Alfredsson	non-CASH	804	214	27%
H.Sedin	Career	1070	745	70%
D.Sedin	Career	1041	745	72%
Kariya	TS-era	412	236	57%
Datsyuk	Career	918	412	45%
St. Louis	Career	1033	632	61%
St. Louis	2002-13	817	581	71%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Some will downplay Alfredsson's offensive numbers due to the CASH line time and ignore how often he played with average talents or below.

Alfredsson = Spezza, Heately, Yashin, Hossa
Sedins - I only counted their time together, though they also played with Naslund and Bertuzzi for significant periods (up to 100 combined points).
Kariya - isolated period is the moment Selanne was acquired and then traded.
Datsyuk = Zetterberg, Hull, Shanahan and Hossa.
St. Louis = Lecavalier, Richards and Stamkos.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Earlier I posted a list that showed Alfredsson as being the 3rd leading scorer of the 2000's. It has been argued that list is arbitrary and perhaps players whose best 10 years didn't line up with an exact decade weren't represented. Here is a rolling list starting with player who started to appear on the top-10 list after the 1967 expansion (the first being Keon). The number beside their name is how of the rolling 10 year top-10 in points lists the players made:

17 – Gretzky
12 – Esposito, Dionne, Sakic
11 – Jagr, Francis
10 – Ratelle, Yzerman, Thornton
9 – Clarke, Lafleur, Perreault, Messier, Oates, Iginla
8 – Trottier, Kurri, Lemieux, Recchi, Sundin, Selanne
7 – Orr, Gilbert, Sittler, Stastny, Coffey, Hawerchuk, Br. Hull, Modano, Alfredsson, St. Louis
6 – Bossy, D.Savard, Turgeon
5 – Federko, Gilmour, Hossa
4 – Cournoyer, Lemaire, McDonald, Goulet, Nicholls, Kariya, Kovalchuk, Datsyuk, D.Sedin
3 – Hodge, Barber, Potvin, Middleton, Robitaille, Fleury, Forsberg, Naslund, Heatley, Getzlaf
2 – Keon, R.Martin, Shanahan, Lecavalier, B.Richards, E.Staal
1 - P.Martin, P.Mahovlich, Goring, MacLeish, Lysiak, Maruk, Taylor, B.Smith, Tkachuk, Palffy, Kovalev, Elias


Players you might be surprised to see did not make any list:
Andreychuk, Gartner, Roenick, Damphousse, Ciccarelli, Brind’Amour, Fedorov, Marleau, Nieuwendyk, G.Anderson, Whitney, Mullen, Verbeek, Weight, Mogilny, Bure, Lindros, Bellows, Hunter, Lafontaine, Larmer, Propp, Doan, Zetterberg, Muller, Tocchet, Arnott, Thomas, Broten, Spezza, Amonte, Roberts, Bondra, Ferraro, Leclair, Yashin, Hejduk, Tanguay

 

[dumbdick]

Alfredsson's third attempt to be inducted into the HHOF is on the 25th I believe. He could possibly even be inducted as sort of the headliner this year.

Here is more data to add the Alfredsson statistical repository.
______________________________________________
Some people have criticized his early postseasons, but they were actually pretty solid and a big part of the reason his totals went up later in his career is because his teammates started producing. Thus, Alfie's goals went down and his total points went up.

First 10 playoff series (1997 to end of 2003 2nd round), Min 30 GP:
Alfredsson was tied for first in GPG and tied for 14th in PPG.

Rank	Player	GP	G	Pts	GPG	Rank	Player	GP	G	Pts	PPG
1	Alfredsson	55	26	44	0.47	1	Forsberg	94	41	116	1.23
2	Jagr	53	25	64	0.47	2	Jagr	53	25	64	1.21
3	Forsberg	94	41	116	0.44	3	Sakic	108	46	112	1.04
4	Sakic	108	46	112	0.43	4	Kamensky	36	14	36	1.00
5	Selanne	33	14	24	0.42	5	Modano	91	31	87	0.96
6	Guerin	38	16	24	0.42	6	Fedorov	94	31	86	0.91
7	Bondra	34	14	22	0.41	7	Yzerman	88	28	78	0.89
8	S.Kozlov	66	26	42	0.39	8	Sundin	55	20	48	0.87
9	Kamensky	36	14	36	0.39	9	Weight	56	16	48	0.86
10	S. Young	71	27	48	0.38	10	Turgeon	55	14	46	0.84
11	Recchi	62	23	51	0.37	11	Recchi	62	23	51	0.82
12	Hull	98	36	80	0.37	12	Hull	98	36	80	0.82
13	Sundin	55	20	48	0.36	13	Straka	52	16	42	0.81
14	Brind'Amour	59	21	45	0.36	14	Audette	51	18	41	0.80
15	Audette	51	18	41	0.35	15	Alfredsson	55	26	44	0.80

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

11 playoff series from 2006-2013, min 30 GP

Rank	Player	GP	G	Pts	GPG	Rank	Player	GP	G	Pts	PPG
1	Ovechkin	58	31	61	0.53	1	Crosby	82	40	105	1.28
2	Cammalleri	32	17	32	0.53	2	Malkin	83	36	97	1.17
3	Crosby	82	40	105	0.49	3	Giroux	50	21	55	1.10
4	Zetterberg	107	52	109	0.49	4	Ovechkin	58	31	61	1.05
5	Briere	102	48	106	0.47	5	Briere	102	48	106	1.04
6	Alfredsson	52	24	52	0.46	6	Zetterberg	107	52	109	1.02
7	E.Staal	43	19	43	0.44	7	Alfredsson	52	24	52	1.00
8	Iginla	41	18	37	0.44	8	Cammalleri	32	17	32	1.00
9	Malkin	83	36	97	0.43	9	Spezza	50	16	50	1.00
10	Marleau	89	38	65	0.43	10	E.Staal	43	19	43	1.00

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

There are only 3 series missing out of his whole career: 2003 vs NJ (likely injured during 2003 playoffs - ice time crashed after 3rd game vs NYI), 2004 vs Tor and 2014 with Det (was injured).
______________________________________________________________
Point collaborations with teammates, full regular season career.

Total	1157		Fisher	94	Redden	142
Spezza	215		White	77	Karlsson	40
Heatley	150		Bonk	56	Chara	39
Yashin	107		Prospal	37
Hossa	37		McEachern	78
Raw	509		Arvedson	36
Actual	440		Schaefer	33
%	38%		Havlat	29

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Raw is the total points those players scored with Alfredsson, Actual eliminates the following duplicates:
Alfredsson, Heatley & Spezza = 67 occurrence
Alfredsson, Yashin & Hossa = 1 occurrence
Alfredsson, Spezza & Hossa = 1 occurrence

Elite linemate collaborations (isolated and/or career):

Player	Period	Points	EPC	EP%
Alfredsson	Career	1157	440	38%
Alfredsson	2006-09	353	226	64%
Alfredsson	non-CASH	804	214	27%
H.Sedin	Career	1070	745	70%
D.Sedin	Career	1041	745	72%
Kariya	TS-era	412	236	57%
Datsyuk	Career	918	412	45%
St. Louis	Career	1033	632	61%
St. Louis	2002-13	817	581	71%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Some will downplay Alfredsson's offensive numbers due to the CASH line time and ignore how often he played with average talents or below.

Alfredsson = Spezza, Heately, Yashin, Hossa
Sedins - I only counted their time together, though they also played with Naslund and Bertuzzi for significant periods (up to 100 combined points).
Kariya - isolated period is the moment Selanne was acquired and then traded.
Datsyuk = Zetterberg, Hull, Shanahan and Hossa.
St. Louis = Lecavalier, Richards and Stamkos.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Earlier I posted a list that showed Alfredsson as being the 3rd leading scorer of the 2000's. It has been argued that list is arbitrary and perhaps players whose best 10 years didn't line up with an exact decade weren't represented. Here is a rolling list starting with player who started to appear on the top-10 list after the 1967 expansion (the first being Keon). The number beside their name is how of the rolling 10 year top-10 in points lists the players made:

17 – Gretzky
12 – Esposito, Dionne, Sakic
11 – Jagr, Francis
10 – Ratelle, Yzerman, Thornton
9 – Clarke, Lafleur, Perreault, Messier, Oates, Iginla
8 – Trottier, Kurri, Lemieux, Recchi, Sundin, Selanne
7 – Orr, Gilbert, Sittler, Stastny, Coffey, Hawerchuk, Br. Hull, Modano, Alfredsson, St. Louis
6 – Bossy, D.Savard, Turgeon
5 – Federko, Gilmour, Hossa
4 – Cournoyer, Lemaire, McDonald, Goulet, Nicholls, Kariya, Kovalchuk, Datsyuk, D.Sedin
3 – Hodge, Barber, Potvin, Middleton, Robitaille, Fleury, Forsberg, Naslund, Heatley, Getzlaf
2 – Keon, R.Martin, Shanahan, Lecavalier, B.Richards, E.Staal
1 - P.Martin, P.Mahovlich, Goring, MacLeish, Lysiak, Maruk, Taylor, B.Smith, Tkachuk, Palffy, Kovalev, Elias


Players you might be surprised to see did not make any list:
Andreychuk, Gartner, Roenick, Damphousse, Ciccarelli, Brind’Amour, Fedorov, Marleau, Nieuwendyk, G.Anderson, Whitney, Mullen, Verbeek, Weight, Mogilny, Bure, Lindros, Bellows, Hunter, Lafontaine, Larmer, Propp, Doan, Zetterberg, Muller, Tocchet, Arnott, Thomas, Broten, Spezza, Amonte, Roberts, Bondra, Ferraro, Leclair, Yashin, Hejduk, Tanguay

This is such an awesome post. Thank you for this.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

Not sure HHOF is going to look at all that stuff.
Alfredsson had several top 10 point seasons, that will help him.
He had a top 10 assists season, that will help him.
He won a major award (Calder) and was the driver behind a Canadian franchise (this sort of thing matters for longevity/leadership valuations).

He will get in. I think that a factor stated prior (diversity) will hurt his chances. They need to put in a woman every year, so that cuts the field for NHLers.. We'll see, but one thing that will definitely help him is that he fluffed Sundin when the latter got inducted, in a video presentation. That likely mollified a lot of Toronto people, and the HHOF is in Toronto, despite the wide variety of judges. Think Pierre McGuire is a judge though, so who the hell knows.

 

[Stylizer1]

How I see it is he had a few allstar seasons because of his linemates but never separated himself from the pact in the other years. If he would have won a cup in 2007 or won one of the major awards like the Art Ross, the Hart, the Rocket, or finals mvp I think he would have been selected. His time will come eventually but was never on the same level as most who have gotten in over the last 5 years.

 

[Silencio]

Alfie will get in this year. Also I find it hilarious that as much reverence as Canadians have for hockey, we stuffed its hall of fame into a basement food court in a Toronto office tower.

 

[trentmccleary]

How I see it is he had a few allstar seasons because of his linemates but never separated himself from the pact in the other years. If he would have won a cup in 2007 or won one of the major awards like the Art Ross, the Hart, the Rocket, or finals mvp I think he would have been selected. His time will come eventually but was never on the same level as most who have gotten in over the last 5 years.

A major individual award certainly would have helped get him in quicker, but he was easily on the same level as many who have gotten in or are about to get in. If you look closer at some of the players who have won the Art Ross (and other trophies that typically follow), it was quite a production to help win them that trophy.

- being put on a loaded line with other elite producers
- completely abandoning defensive play and hemorrhaging goals against while challenging for top-10's
- getting among the PP time in the league
- getting an absurd amount of offensive zone starts
- being in a weak division and beating up on it
- being on a terrible team with nothing to play for... except doing everything it can to win you a scoring title

Alfredsson played the first half of his career with a defensive team and the other elite forward was typically anchoring another line (Yashin or Hossa). The team won a lot of games, it didn't work to inflate anybody's point totals. Look at those elite linemate lists for guys like St. Louis and the Sedins where they played most of their careers with elite linemates 70% of the time based on points. You want to see how Alfredsson's highest EPC% seasons compare?

DA	2009	73%	MSL	2011	80%
DA	2006	69%	MSL	2010	79%
DA	2008	66%	MSL	2008	78%
DA	2001	51%	MSL	2013	77%
DA	2007	48%	MSL	2007	76%
DA	2010	41%	MSL	2002	74%
DA	1997	39%	MSL	2006	66%
DA	1998	38%	MSL	2009	64%
DA	2012	32%	MSL	2003	57%
DA	2003	30%	MSL	2004	55%
	Avg	49%		Avg	71%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

He was typically used to create a line with guys like White, Fisher, etc. In the one season that he was above 70%, it was for Hartsburg... the guy who destroyed the team's offense with an amateurish breakout strategy and zero puck pressure.

 

[Larionov]

Alfie will get in this year. Also I find it hilarious that as much reverence as Canadians have for hockey, we stuffed its hall of fame into a basement food court in a Toronto office tower.

I saw it in its old location as a kid before it moved. It was in an old building on the CNE grounds, with one half as the HHOF and the other half as the Canadian Sports Hall of Fame. It was a tiny space that wasn't a fraction of what it is today...

 

[Stylizer1]

A major individual award certainly would have helped get him in quicker, but he was easily on the same level as many who have gotten in or are about to get in. If you look closer at some of the players who have won the Art Ross (and other trophies that typically follow), it was quite a production to help win them that trophy.

- being put on a loaded line with other elite producers
- completely abandoning defensive play and hemorrhaging goals against while challenging for top-10's
- getting among the PP time in the league
- getting an absurd amount of offensive zone starts
- being in a weak division and beating up on it
- being on a terrible team with nothing to play for... except doing everything it can to win you a scoring title

Alfredsson played the first half of his career with a defensive team and the other elite forward was typically anchoring another line (Yashin or Hossa). The team won a lot of games, it didn't work to inflate anybody's point totals. Look at those elite linemate lists for guys like St. Louis and the Sedins where they played most of their careers with elite linemates 70% of the time based on points. You want to see how Alfredsson's highest EPC% seasons compare?

DA	2009	73%	MSL	2011	80%
DA	2006	69%	MSL	2010	79%
DA	2008	66%	MSL	2008	78%
DA	2001	51%	MSL	2013	77%
DA	2007	48%	MSL	2007	76%
DA	2010	41%	MSL	2002	74%
DA	1997	39%	MSL	2006	66%
DA	1998	38%	MSL	2009	64%
DA	2012	32%	MSL	2003	57%
DA	2003	30%	MSL	2004	55%
	Avg	49%		Avg	71%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

He was typically used to create a line with guys like White, Fisher, etc. In the one season that he was above 70%, it was for Hartsburg... the guy who destroyed the team's offense with an amateurish breakout strategy and zero puck pressure.

At the end of the day it comes down to stats. If he warranted 1st line everything he would have played there his whole career. He had unbelievable chemistry with Heatley and Spezza but so would have other players seeing how playing with Spezza alone would gove them career highs. Looking at stats after the fact doesn't equate the same as production on the ice at the time. Alfie was a boarder line 1st line player most of his career but was an excellent 2nd liner.

 

[SPF6ty9]

At the end of the day it comes down to stats. If he warranted 1st line everything he would have played there his whole career. He had unbelievable chemistry with Heatley and Spezza but so would have other players seeing how playing with Spezza alone would gove them career highs. Looking at stats after the fact doesn't equate the same as production on the ice at the time. Alfie was a boarder line 1st line player most of his career but was an excellent 2nd liner.

Come on, an excellent 2nd liner? I'm far from Alfie's biggest fan on here, but during pretty much his entire time here he was the best or second best forward on the team...and for about a decade those were some of the top teams in the league. There's no way he was ever anything less than a 1st line caliber player until late in his career.

His stats are pretty good anyways. Whether it's this year or 1 or 2 down the road, he'll get in.

 

[Wondercarrot]

At the end of the day it comes down to stats. If he warranted 1st line everything he would have played there his whole career. He had unbelievable chemistry with Heatley and Spezza but so would have other players seeing how playing with Spezza alone would gove them career highs. Looking at stats after the fact doesn't equate the same as production on the ice at the time. Alfie was a boarder line 1st line player most of his career but was an excellent 2nd liner.

You must joking...this is a joke, right?

 

[h2]

At the end of the day it comes down to stats. If he warranted 1st line everything he would have played there his whole career. He had unbelievable chemistry with Heatley and Spezza but so would have other players seeing how playing with Spezza alone would gove them career highs. Looking at stats after the fact doesn't equate the same as production on the ice at the time. Alfie was a boarder line 1st line player most of his career but was an excellent 2nd liner.

Oh boy... one of the worst opinions I have ever seen in 20 years of hfboards browsing!

 

[inthewings]

Any leaks on this yet? Really hoping this is the year he gets in.

 

[Sens With Benefits]

HHOF also looks at international hockey achievements.

• 1995 World Championships (silver medal)
• 1996 World Championships
• 1996 World Cup of Hockey
• 1998 Winter Olympics
• 1999 World Championships (bronze medal)
• 2001 World Championships (bronze medal)
• 2002 Winter Olympics
• 2004 World Championships (silver medal)
• 2004 World Cup of Hockey
• 2005 World Championships
• 2006 Winter Olympics (alternate captain, gold medal)
• 2010 Winter Olympics (alternate captain)
• 2012 World Championships (captain)
• 2014 Winter Olympics (alternate captain, silver medal)

 

[Lepi]

Did not make the cut... a little disappointing but he will at some point.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Did not make the cut... a little disappointing but he will at some point.

Where'd you see this?

 

[Lepi]

Where'd you see this?

Should be announced shortly.

 

[Stylizer1]

Come on, an excellent 2nd liner? I'm far from Alfie's biggest fan on here, but during pretty much his entire time here he was the best or second best forward on the team...and for about a decade those were some of the top teams in the league. There's no way he was ever anything less than a 1st line caliber player until late in his career.

His stats are pretty good anyways. Whether it's this year or 1 or 2 down the road, he'll get in.

I think you are confusing his impotence to his team and his stature around the league. He was a really all around good player for most of his career and played at an elite level while on the pizza line bit wasn't the player who made that line tick, it was Spezza. When state an opinion on this subject I do it unbiasedly as not to come off as a homer. Alfie was the type of player every team wants and needs and is deserving of the nod eventually there is a reason he has not been inducted which is because of self accomplishments from a league wide stand point. He needed more hardware to get in early and in my opinion was just not seen around the league as best of the best.

I get that it makes sense for die hard Send fan that he gets in because he was our most important player but doesn't make people in other markets take notice, stats and awards do.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

what.

 

[Senscore]

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Oh well. Just more disappointment.