GDT: 2020 HHOF Inductions June 24 - Alfredsson's 4th attempt. Start post #206

[NyQuil]

Thanks. That's really helpful actually.

For the record, I have no issue with Iggy getting in before Alfie, even if I personally feel Alfie was better. It's very similar storylines on both (beloved long time captain of a small market Canadian team), but in light of the spotlight on the leagues diversity and racism issues, it's not a bad time to celebrate the player that absolutely deserves to be there.

Meh, Iginla is a no brainer. His peak hardware outstrips Alfredsson and he has better stats.

He has a better case than Alfredsson, I think that's a fact.

 

[trentmccleary]

Player	GP	G	A	Pts	PPG	PPGvSE	PPGvOth	PtsvSE	EVGA/15min	EPGC%
DA	73	30	48	78	1.07	1.18	1.04	25.50%	0.687	0.41
MSL	81	31	55	86	1.06	1.20	0.99	34.40%	0.827	0.67

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

82 G paces	GP	G	A	Pts	EPGC	EVGA	PtsvSE
DA	82	34	54	88	36	56	22
MSL	82	32	55	87	58	68	30

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So back to the original question, how much better was Martin St. Louis than Daniel Alfredsson?

So, the question wasn't who had more accolades to their name. Trent pretty clearly went over how some variables can influence a player's likelihood of getting those accolades, and showed some of the advantages St.Louis had, he then asked how much of a gap there was between them. By just listing off the accolades and calling it a day, you're either dismissing that those other variables matter at all, or just not getting the point thatwhile you can certainly make the case the St.Louis is still ahead of Alfredsson in spite of the advantages, they are certainly closer then they appear based solely on accolades.

Just to clarify, based largely on the above tables... I completely reject my own question. Trophies or not, there's no way that I'm ever going to believe that Marty St. Louis was even Alfredsson's equal, let alone his superior. He completely shirked his defensive responsibilities to light up weak opponents with his all star linemates. I'll also forever take his offensive numbers with a grain of salt, similar to how I think of Kovalchuk's offensive numbers.

You could've cranked up Kovalchuk's PP time to 10 minutes a game, told him that he never had to even pretend to play defense, given him 80% offensive zone starts like a 1-dimensional rookie out of the QMJHL playing in the Stanley Cup Finals and tethered him to all stars all game every game. Maybe he would have posted 120 points a seasons (and probably 125 goals against). Would that have made him better than Alfredsson? ... F-NO, it would have just made him a bigger fraud than he was!

Offensive numbers shouldn't be taken at face value anymore, not with the wealth of data available to determine whether and how much offensive opportunities to players like Iginla, St. Louis, the Sedins, Benn, etc were manipulated to win them the scoring title... even when it impaired the team's ability to win games.

I respect the work that went into it and I am not diminishing anything. I am speaking the way most fans would argue the debate. They are very comparable players, just one guy got it done on a national level and the other came up short. It's what makes someone a first ballot or makes someone have to wait for the right time. It doesn't diminish Alfredsson's success in the league but something has to separate you from the other very good players and sorry to say that is at least individual awards up to a cup. Had MSL only won rookie of the year he would be in the same boat as Alfie. Now if Alfie played in a different, bigger market, you could see him getting the nod quicker. He should get in this year.

I didn't quote his post, I said what I think.

I think that you're also speaking the way the Hockey Hall of Fame committee speaks too. Trophies, Cups and raw stats are all they seem to be able to process and because of that; they have repeatedly inducted players from the 1980's who never should have made it in. I'm already seeing a sharp contrast between accomplished players who are in and better players who were left out. As it is, there's an even money chance that they induct Kevin Lowe today; a guy who was probably the 300th best defenseman in league history.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I am saying Alfie goes in today....

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

If he does go in, will it be acknowledged by the organization?

 

[BatherSeason]

If he does go in, will it be acknowledged by the organization?

I was thinking the exact same thing this morning.

 

[BankStreetParade]

If he does go in, will it be acknowledged by the organization?

Does Alfredsson get to choose which team he goes in with? Or is that not a thing in the NHL HoF?

 

[Senscore]

If he does go in, will it be acknowledged by the organization?

I'm sure there will be a few tweets.

 

[Rand0m]

I was thinking the exact same thing this morning.

imagine he choses Detroit... I kind of want him to do that.

 

[Masked]

I feel the same way.

I haven't read this article in its entirety (paywall), but Eric Duhatschek convened a HHoF election committee at the Athletic and my understanding is that SURPRISE, Alfie was passed over again.

EDIT: Mrs_NyQuil has an account:



The Athletic's Hockey Hall of Fame committee: Who we elected...

I'm on a free trial of The Athletic right now and I am shocked at how much worse the quality is compared to what I was expecting. It's basically Ottawa Citizen quality before they merged with the Sun. I was expecting something more along the lines of the quality of the now departed Grantland.

 

[NyQuil]

I'm on a free trial of The Athletic right now and I am shocked at how much worse the quality is compared to what I was expecting. It's basically Ottawa Citizen quality before they merged with the Sun. I was expecting something more along the lines of the quality of the now departed Grantland.

It depends on the sport and the writer.

Some of it I've enjoyed. But mainly those that are written by players with assistance that provide good behind-the-scenes information.

 

[Larionov]

If he does go in, will it be acknowledged by the organization?

Apparently Melnyk is doing Toronto sports radio today to pump Alfie's tires, so I'd say yes. It's actually good that Melnyk didn't do anything earlier, as it likely would have backfired. Doing it now, when he can't really screw up Alfie's chances, is actually for the best. Who knows - maybe it could lead to at least a temporary truce between them, which would be good. (Don't misunderstand me - I don't blame Alfie for being angry with Euge, but for the sake of the fans and the city it would be best if he and the club were at least on civil terms until such time as the ownership changes.)

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Apparently Melnyk is doing Toronto sports radio today to pump Alfie's tires, so I'd say yes. It's actually good that Melnyk didn't do anything earlier, as it likely would have backfired. Doing it now, when he can't really screw up Alfie's chances, is actually for the best. Who knows - maybe it could lead to at least a temporary truce between them, which would be good. (Don't misunderstand me - I don't blame Alfie for being angry with Euge, but for the sake of the fans and the city it would be best if he and the club were at least on civil terms until such time as the ownership changes.)

I'd be shocked if the inductees haven't been selected already. Don't really see how doing this on the day of the announcement does anything tbh.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Apparently Melnyk is doing Toronto sports radio today to pump Alfie's tires, so I'd say yes. It's actually good that Melnyk didn't do anything earlier, as it likely would have backfired. Doing it now, when he can't really screw up Alfie's chances, is actually for the best. Who knows - maybe it could lead to at least a temporary truce between them, which would be good. (Don't misunderstand me - I don't blame Alfie for being angry with Euge, but for the sake of the fans and the city it would be best if he and the club were at least on civil terms until such time as the ownership changes.)

Alfie was civil during his retirement speech. I don't think the hate is there as many put it. Personally, and solely my opinion... I think Alfredsson was dissapointed that EM and the organization for not giving him a chance at a cup in his final years. There is no anger.

"I've grown and learned a lot in the past 18 months. I realize that you never stop learning, especially when you're open to new beginnings and new chapters. Then last season my body began to complain once more. The old injury and the hard work of recovery began all over again. I worked hard to rehab my back this summer so I could play another year. However, about three weeks ago I realized it's time to retire. It's another hard decision. Then I got another important phone call from Ottawa. Bryan said he and Mr. Melnyk had spoken and had an idea that I should not end my career in Detroit but with a proper retirement here in our adopted hometown. I spoke with Ken Holland about my retirement and that Bryan and Mr. Melnyk wanted me to retire as an Ottawa Senator, and Ken encouraged me to retire here. He said it's the right thing to do.
"I was taken aback by this offer. I never believed that my career entitled me to any special treatment. However Bibbi and I both agreed this was the right thing to do and it would give us a chance to say thank you to the people and the fans of Ottawa. So here we are. Today I officially retire as an Ottawa Senator and another new chapter will begin tonight as we say goodbye to Ottawa. The future may hold some role for me in hockey again, but not this year. This is one for my family, for my own life and for reflecting on where we've been and deciding on what's next. For now I'm just very grateful for this opportunity to say thank you and goodbye, and please no more phone calls for a while.
"Let me just say thank you to Ottawa, to the Sens, to the Sens fans and especially to Mr. Melnyk, thank you. And to Bryan. I really appreciate this. Merci et a bientot. Thank you."

Hours after signing his new contract, Alfredsson told reporters he felt Detroit offered him a better opportunity at winning the Stanley Cup. On Thursday, the Swede was once again asked about his assessment of the two teams.
"I wish I could take that comment back I guess," said Alfredsson. "The reality is it's two great teams. We all know in today's NHL it's making the playoffs that counts and anything after that anything can happen."
Alfredsson said he holds no ill will towards Senators management, but it appears it's been a messy separation.

Anyways... I am not going to sully this amazing day in Sens history. (hopefully Euge doesn't either).

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Alfie was civil during his retirement speech. I don't think the hate is there as many put it. Personally, and solely my opinion... I think Alfredsson was dissapointed that EM and the organization for not giving him a chance at a cup in his final years. There is no anger.

From what I've heard from people around the city with connections to the org, that sounds like lip service from Alfie and Melnyk. There's a lot more to the story than just Detroit being a better team.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Wasn't he on record saying he hopes we get a new owner?

That seemed about as damning a statement as any.

 

[BondraTime]

Wasn't he on record saying he hopes we get a new owner?

That seemed about as damning a statement as any.

Yeah, after he left the organization because of...you guessed it.

Alfredsson’s stance on Melnyk is well known, not sure how that could be argued, but looking at it not surprised.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Wasn't he on record saying he hopes we get a new owner?

That seemed about as damning a statement as any.

Off the record... and not so damning. It means this EM guy was too cheap to put a playoff team in Alfie's final years.

Mountain out of a mole hill.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Off the record... and not so damning. It means this EM guy was too cheap to put a playoff team in final years.

Mountain out of a mole hill.

I really don't want to get in to this and drag this off topic, but how would you know this and is it not just your assumption? Nothing to do with aaaaaanything else?

Kind of looks like you just made that up.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Sedins (will be first ballot) and Zetterberg will be eligible next year, so if Alfie doesn't get in today I think we'll be waiting a while.

 

[LeProspector]

Sedins (will be first ballot) and Zetterberg will be eligible next year, so if Alfie doesn't get in today I think we'll be waiting a while.

i doubt Zetterberg gets in first ballot, he’s in the same vein as a guy like Elias IMO.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

LIVE: HOF

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Ugh. Iginla, Hossa, Lowe, D. Wilson, Kim St. Pierre, Holland (builder)

 

[saskriders]

Hossa is in.

 

[saskriders]

Ugh. Iginla, Hossa, Lowe, D. Wilson, Holland (builder)

Did they release the full list before the announcement?

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Give me a break.