When they sign these PTO's, they usually already have a contract signed that starts for the next year. So they are financially secured at that point.
Prospect Info: 2020 Draft - 1st Pick: Dylan Holloway | SIGNED! ELC Starts 2021-2022 Season | Signs ATO With Bako!
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Behind Enemy Lines
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I think a first round NHL draft player is signing an NHL entry contract and not a PTO contract. A Professional Tryout Contract is limited to 25 games following which it can be renewed, and renewed, and renewed.
EDIT: A first round pick with option to stay in college would have to have rocks for brains and an incompetent agent if he settled for a PTO. And once signing with an agent to negotiate said PTO would automatically forfeit his college eligibility.
I don't think you're following what im saying at this point.
He would be signing a PTO to finish off this season, with a contract already signed for next season.
He isn't continually being re-upped for his PTO.
Have we seen many first round picks leave college early to play on a PTO instead of an ELC?
Behind Enemy Lines
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I don't think so, I don't even know if its possible for a player already in a teams organization.
It happens with undrafted players though.
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Wisconsin is at Michigan. Playing against Beniers, Power, Johnson, etc.
Should be a good test for the Badgers.
Wisconsin is at Michigan. Playing against Beniers, Power, Johnson, etc.
Should be a good test for the Badgers.
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Dylan Larkin did exactly that.
Dylan Larkin - Wikipedia
His 2014-2015 college season ended, he signed a 3 year ELC with the red wings that started in the 2015-2016 season and then signed an ATO so he could play in the playoffs for the Red Wings AHL team to end the 2014-2015 season and not burn up a year of his ELC.
Pretty sure it’s fairly common practice.
so he signed his ELC with the RedWings and then signed an amateur tryout with the AHL club? Was is possibly because the Wings didn’t have contract space? I see he only played 6 playoff games and no regular season games as well. Interesting.
I think Eberle did the same thing back in 2009
No. I think the practice is pretty common (I've seen it a dozen times - need to find references). Red Wings didn't want to burn a year off his contract so it is signed for NEXT season.
I stole this from a Canucks board (I feel dirty) but it summarizes it perfectly
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"I believe the terms for “professional years” when it comes to expansion stipulate the the pro games played must be from seasons when the player is signed to an “SPC” (standard player contract).
A tryout is not an SPC, so if Gaudette were to sign his entry level deal for next season, and go on an ATO with Utica this season, any professional games he amassed this season would not count against his “professional years” totals when it comes to expansion.
A player on an ATO remains an amateur (thus the name “amateur try out”). They can play in a pro league but maintain their amateur status. Any games played under an ATO would not be considered part of a professional year."
They get some sort of per diem. Not sure about the logistics of it if it’s playoffs vs regular season.
Behind Enemy Lines
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The key is after he signed a three year ELC with Detroit. He had the financial security in place before making a jump. I'd like to know more about the specifics of signing an ATO after having a contract in place with the Wings. It seems more of a paper transaction than anything and strange to have essentially two employee contracts in place simultaneously. The only thing that makes sense is if the Griffins are independently owned and this is a paper transaction between two separate legal entities. Doing a very quick search engine look it appears the Griffins are owned by a guy named Dan DeVos.
Larkin had a secured contract with Detroit in place and the Wings facilitated the landing spot to an independent owned professional affiliate. PTO's which we talked about are primarily a short term contract with a clear start and end date commonly used for more fringe hopefuls to secure jobs or NHL players who missed on free agency secured money deals. It's not a pipeline for high regarded NHL organizational prospects especially those with option to ride out four years of college competition to see their own destination.
Behind Enemy Lines
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He still signed a professional contract with the Red Wings so that would disqualify his return to college hockey. Highly unlikely he would opt for a family 'advisor' to negotiate an ELC over a professional agent accredited to do so with the NHL/NHL PA.
Yeah, that is exactly what @Tobias Kahun said...
The player already has the contract in place, and in order to play for their teams AHL affiliate while not having an impact on their ELC and future contracts for what amounts to a handful of AHL games they sign a short term ATO to finish out the season.
So with Holloway, when his college season ends, he could sign a 3 year ELC with the Oilers that would start in 2021-2022. But then if Bakersfield is still in the playoffs and they would like his help, he can sign an ATO which would allow him to finish out the season with our AHL team. The contract is guaranteed before he signs the tryout. The tryout is just a means to get a handful of games in at the end of the season to help with development and hopefully with the AHL team.
Every once in awhile you will end up in a scenario where the player will sign their ELC at the end of their college season, but instead of going to the AHL they will go to the NHL immediately which does burn up a year of their ELC.
Cale Makar is a recent example of that. They signed him to a 3 year ELC at the end of his college season. He played 10 games for the Avalanche in the playoffs that season burning up a year of his ELC so they only ended up with 2 full seasons of his ELC. Johnny Gaudreau was the same iirc.
So it is possible that the Oilers could sign Holloway this season and he could burn a year off his ELC if they thought he could help the big club. But I think the much more common practice is the ATO route.
Behind Enemy Lines
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The original discussion pertained to PTO contract. Which was the point I questioned. And that a guaranteed contract would be required not the provisions of short, term based employment risk that is the nature of a PTO.
Now, as that discussion changed and evolved to talk ATO contract options, yes, it is clear reading and learning more about the nuances of ATO contract options yes for these types of contracts it looks like an option. This would have benefit regarding when the ELC contract begins but regardless back to original discussion points it eliminates Holloway's option to return to college. The Oilers own their farm team unlike the Larkin example you gave so their risk of player injury transfers to themselves not to a third party independently owned franchise. And if the Condors are in the playoffs or hunt when Holloway's college season ends, then as you point out the ATO contract after signing an NHL entry contract is a consideration.
Cale Makar and Quinn Hughes both utilized their college eligibility leverage wisely to air drop into NHL rosters, contribute immediately, and shorten their entry level contracts. Smart plays. Win Win for the clubs and players.
Sometimes I wonder what he's even reading when he's replying.
Behind Enemy Lines
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Sorry about that. I was just commenting really about some of the nuance of NCAA eligibility requirements. They are super strict and once a prospect engages an agent it is game over. I was just musing about the weird role of advisor which is permitted but not an agent. Sorry this was tagged to my reply to you and clearly my posting while multi-tasking needs work!
EDIT: I had also posted this doc which I was looking at when I posted which outlines some of the considerations around agent and advisor and eligibility risks: https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2018DIENF_NHLEducational_Memo_20180424.pdf
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Behind Enemy Lines
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Clearly I lost the plot in our discussions and missed what you were communicating. My apology for that - I was really fixated on PTO vs. the ATO which is as you have stated is a valid option for Holloway. I'm most interested in whether Holloway opts to go pro (or not) this year. The contractual way he does that isn't really of interest to me. That clearly shows in missing your valid points! I missed the mark.
If I was him I would burn off an ELC this year by turning pro rather than waiting and starting it the next year and then going to the AHL on an ATO.
We're for the most part arguing the same thing, just in different ways.
All good.
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