2020/21 Roster Thread IX: Where Everyone Becomes Erratic and Irrational

[BernieParent]

He only makes 2.3 MM. Retaining doesn't mean much here. I guess if it's the last addition for a team that makes the difference between cap compliance and not it could matter quite a bit, but that's a super narrow runway.



Pageau was billed as an excellent defensive Center who had scored 50 Goals in his last 127 RS Games. Why are they comparable?



Yes, a bad GM could do bad GM things. I hope they do!



Both were better and again, Tampa was buying an extra year of dirt cheap control in both cases.



A big salary dump and Kase was a better player when healthy by a significant margin. Again, why are they comparable?



Again, another Goal scorer. Very different market than what you're trying to sell Laughton as to a contender.



Depth pieces usually return a 4th or so. Again, not a comp.



Not one reasonable comp in the whole list outside of maybe AA, but there are post-hype differences there as well. I agree he could return a 2nd and a thing of minor value or a team might get desperate and offer more. But it would take either a bad GM doing typical things or desperation.

 

[flyerslducks]

Voracek can be an aggravating player, but, face it, he's essentially unmovable in the current cap environment. And if they move him, they aren't going to get a better player in return.

this. and we don't really want to move him given our current stance as a team. We aren't trying to blow this up which is what some angry twitter people want lol. We just need to change a few things and come back hard af next year. Get a top 4 d, solid back up goalie, fix the bottom pair, fix the special teams, and maybe add a forward. We need voracek more than other teams do if we want to make a run these next two years.

Once farabee, frost, tk, Patrick get going...voracek/giroux can just supply supplemental offense like they are doing this year. THey might decline in numbers but their value will be shown in a playoff run if we can make it next year

 

[BernieParent]

You mentioned it from the Hartman angle, but how quickly some forget about the Simmonds debate. He was "too important" and was too much of a leader to give up for when they went on a cup run, but they never went on one and kept him around until he had little value.

Laughton has redeeming qualities, but when the scoring isn't there his effect on the game is pretty small. I know it's been a fun topic to talk about how much of a leader he is now. Let's not forget that came after Simmonds was dealt, meaning someone else stepped up to replace Simmonds.

Adding it all up there's really no reason to not trade him. If trading him means they don't sign him to an overpriced extension I would even say the return is insignificant.

That whole Simmonds scenario was a real disappointment. He fell off a cliff play-wise just when the admin decided to flip him for picks. Even leading up to the TDL, many of us bought into the "experts'" hype that the Flyers could get a 1st+. Then,

 

[flyerslducks]

That is not necessarily true. We could at least look for a riper lower end prospect than a long shot pick.

But given the binary choice, yes I’d rather pay Laughton than trade him for virtually nothing. Mid-round picks are almost worthless to us at this stage. And again, if we do trade him for picks, let them be 2022 so we have time to flip them.

I think the Flyers intend to keep Laughton as long as he doesn't price himself out of town. There will be a lot of people here who will grouse about them not getting a 2nd round pick for him, but I'm with you. You don't trade Laughton, if there's any chance of re-signing him, for what is likely to be another Laberge.

Resigning laughton signals to me that they are intending to protect him. Otherwise, what is the point of resigning him for Seattle to just pick him? That would leave jvr and voracek exposed which means seattle definitely picks up jvr. If that does happen, then throw money at hamilton
Unless we decide to protect laughton and jvr, leaving lindblom and voracek exposed? I feel like we might get surprised by what fletcher does...hopefully not.

 

[flyerslducks]

That whole Simmonds scenario was a real disappointment. He fell off a cliff play-wise just when the admin decided to flip him for picks. Even leading up to the TDL, many of us bought into the "experts'" hype that the Flyers could get a 1st+. Then,

yup we fumbled that one. Should've traded laughton and simmonds a year earlier for a first. Coudlve had that player possibly making the roster next year with frost.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Resigning laughton signals to me that they are intending to protect him. Otherwise, what is the point of resigning him for Seattle to just pick him? That would leave jvr and voracek exposed which means seattle definitely picks up jvr. Unless we decide to protect laughton and jvr, leaving lindblom and voracek exposed? I feel like we might get surprised by what fletcher does...hopefully not. If that does happen, then throw money at hamilton

I think they plan on exposing both Voracek & JVR in this cap environment. I do not believe Seattle will take either.

 

[Rebels57]

yup we fumbled that one. Should've traded laughton and simmonds a year earlier for a first. Coudlve had that player possibly making the roster next year with frost.

This team was supposed to be a contender this year and one of the hottest teams in the NHL at the trade deadline last year, so no they should not have traded Laughton last year.

Simmonds was a different story.

 

[AdamParrot]

 

[flyerslducks]

This team was supposed to be a contender this year and one of the hottest teams in the NHL at the trade deadline, so no they should not have traded Laughton last year.

Simmonds was a different story.

in hindsight, yes we never should've but given what we know now haha.....would've gotten really nice value for laughotn lmao

 

[Striiker]

That whole Simmonds scenario was a real disappointment. He fell off a cliff play-wise just when the admin decided to flip him for picks. Even leading up to the TDL, many of us bought into the "experts'" hype that the Flyers could get a 1st+. Then,

Worst part is we might have been able to get a good pick, but Chuckles admitted that he left picks on the table because he wanted to get a roster player back... which became Ryan crappy Hartman.

 

[Cootsfanclub]

Exactly what i've been saying. He has little to no trade value league wide. Best hope is Seattle or we are stuck with him for 3 more years at $8.25 million with returns likely diminishing each of those years.

His contract takes him to 34 years, he hasn't shown signs of decline yet, and there will only be 1 UFA winger better than him this offseason (assuming Ovi and Landeskog re-sign).
Carolina, Calgary, Vancouver, and others would all be in on Jake, I think. We'd of course have to take salary back. Something like Holtby+ value for Jake might make sense from Chuck's perspective, though I wouldn't be happy with it. A deal around Backlund would probably be more palatable. Maybe Minnesota would be a fit before the expansion draft with either Dumba or Brodin coming our way, I expect that they'd want a center more than a winger.

 

[flyerslducks]

I think they plan on exposing both Voracek & JVR in this cap environment. I do not believe Seattle will take either.

idk, i think jvr might be taken after the year he is having. Seattle is not going to have as many top forwards like vegas since teams are not going to just gift them reilly smith, marchassault, tuch, karlsson, etc. They might have to pick up a contract.

 

[Rebels57]

His contract takes him to 34 years, he hasn't shown signs of decline yet, and there will only be 1 UFA winger better than him this offseason (assuming Ovi and Landeskog re-sign).
Carolina, Calgary, Vancouver, and others would all be in on Jake, I think. We'd of course have to take salary back. Something like Holtby+ value for Jake might make sense from Chuck's perspective, though I wouldn't be happy with it. A deal around Backlund would probably be more palatable. Maybe Minnesota would be a fit before the expansion draft with either Dumba or Brodin coming our way, I expect that they'd want a center more than a winger.

He hasn't?

 

[Striiker]

He hasn't?

Not when it comes to scoring. 4th best scoring rate of his career so far.

All situations

5v5

With a competent coaching staff this would be more obvious, but getting lower icetime and sabotaged PP units make a difference.

 

[Cootsfanclub]

He hasn't?

No. His PPG seasons were outliers and he's still producing at his 65-70 point pace even with the horribly mismanaged powerplay. He isn't an injury prone player either.

 

[TCTC]

No. His PPG seasons were outliers and he's still producing at his 65-70 point pace even with the horribly mismanaged powerplay. He isn't an injury prone player either.

That's the problem. He's paid like they weren't outliers. Voracek has to produce because he doesn't add much else. He doesn't PK and he's not particularly good defensively. He's the 6th highest paid RW in the entire league.

 

[Cootsfanclub]

That's the problem. He's paid like they weren't outliers. Voracek has to produce because he doesn't add much else. He doesn't PK and he's not particularly good defensively. He's the 6th highest paid RW in the entire league.

And he's the 7th most points since the contract began. He's the 8th highest paid RW in salary and is 11th in points (with lower TOI/GM than everyone above him besides TK) over this season and last. He's about ideal as it gets for a long term contract for someone that would have gone UFA if they let his CBUS contract expire.

Interestingly also 46th in salary for forwards and 47th for points over the last 2 years.

 

[Rebels57]

No. His PPG seasons were outliers and he's still producing at his 65-70 point pace even with the horribly mismanaged powerplay. He isn't an injury prone player either.

Raw production isn't everything. His overall impact has been neutral to negative this season last I checked. Aside from the coaching issues, I also think we need a culture change within the group and he's the obvious choice to ship out if possible. It's an unpopular opinion but i'm sticking to it.

 

[Striiker]

Interesting that the "raw results are everything" crowd suddenly doesn't think raw results are everything anymore when it's not a player they're fawning over.

A few months back Hayes was a hero because of his raw goal/point totals, despite playing like trash otherwise, but now Jake's scoring doesn't matter. Same thing when Giroux was playing great but wasn't scoring enough goals, which led to meltdowns from many.

 

[CutOnDime97]

And he's the 7th most points since the contract began. He's the 8th highest paid RW in salary and is 11th in points (with lower TOI/GM than everyone above him besides TK) over this season and last. He's about ideal as it gets for a long term contract for someone that would have gone UFA if they let his CBUS contract expire.

Interestingly also 46th in salary for forwards and 47th for points over the last 2 years.

Why use salary over cap hit though? Isn't cap hit the only thing relevant here?

 

[Starat327]

Raw production isn't everything. His overall impact has been neutral to negative this season last I checked. Aside from the coaching issues, I also think we need a culture change within the group and he's the obvious choice to ship out if possible. It's an unpopular opinion but i'm sticking to it.

This isnt direceted at you, im just quoting you because you mentioned the sentiment -- hope you dont mind.

Its comical to me though to see the people saying "points arent everything" regarding Voracek and the cross-section of those people who were "Giroux isnt scoring, so it doesnt matter what else hes doing". Its almost like theres a section of this fanbase - again, not you in particular, Rebs - that just cant help but pick on the best players and prop up the shitty ones.

 

[CutOnDime97]

Interesting that the "raw results are everything" crowd suddenly doesn't think raw results are everything anymore when it's not a player they're fawning over.

A few months back Hayes was great because of his raw goal/point totals, but now Jake's scoring doesn't matter. Same thing when Giroux was playing great but wasn't scoring enough goals, which led to meltdowns from many.

Interesting that you only lean on the advanced stats when it supports your arguments

 

[Starat327]

Interesting that the "raw results are everything" crowd suddenly doesn't think raw results are everything anymore when it's not a player they're fawning over.

A few months back Hayes was a hero because of his raw goal/point totals, despite playing like trash otherwise, but now Jake's scoring doesn't matter. Same thing when Giroux was playing great but wasn't scoring enough goals, which led to meltdowns from many.

Damnit - i knew i shouldnt have posted the same sentiment on both accounts. I meant to login to my @kudymen account.

 

[Cootsfanclub]

Raw production isn't everything. His overall impact has been neutral to negative this season last I checked. Aside from the coaching issues, I also think we need a culture change within the group and he's the obvious choice to ship out if possible. It's an unpopular opinion but i'm sticking to it.

He consistently scores at a top line rate even without top line usage that in itself is positive. I don't think he's untouchable and should be moved if it makes the team better. You said he has little to no trade value which is way different than thinking we should trade him for value.

 

[CutOnDime97]

He consistently scores at a top line rate even without top line usage that in itself is positive. I don't think he's untouchable and should be moved if it makes the team better. You said he has little to no trade value which is way different than thinking we should trade him for value.

To trade him we'd almost certainly have to take a big contract back. After seeing Ghost clear waivers, I think it's pretty clear cap is a huge concern all around the league. Maybe that changes but I don't think his contract is moveable in a trade. I could be wrong.