Prospect Info: 2020-21 Prospects Thread (CHL, NCAA, Europe)

[henchman21]

I understand their motivations. I just don’t feel that they are on such solid legal ground until they are operating. The current situation could even be considered force majeure.

I can see them trying to sue but I doubt they get something done in time or get a significant award. And all of that is based on the premise that they have an ironclad contract, that we don’t even know.

It is a pretty iron clad contract with stipulations on how to solve disputes. The most basic contract for each player is about 20 pages long, and there are versions that are longer (Euro loaned out players tend to be longer and are treated differently). Many have been leaked for people to see them if you're really curious. It is explicit in the player being tied to the CHL club and can't play elsewhere unless it it specifically pointed out in the contract. The NHL has an agreement with the whole CHL that allows them to move to the NHL (or AHL if 20). Euro league stipulations are contractual and only for loaned players from Europe.

 

[Metallo]

It is a pretty iron clad contract with stipulations on how to solve disputes. The most basic contract for each player is about 20 pages long, and there are versions that are longer (Euro loaned out players tend to be longer and are treated differently). Many have been leaked for people to see them if you're really curious. It is explicit in the player being tied to the CHL club and can't play elsewhere unless it it specifically pointed out in the contract. The NHL has an agreement with the whole CHL that allows them to move to the NHL (or AHL if 20). Euro league stipulations are contractual and only for loaned players from Europe.

It may be pretty clear in the contract, it may be another thing regarding the legality/enforcability of the contract. Especially during the current context. As you know, in matters of law it’s almost never black and white.

I might try to dig up the WHL contract to have a look.

P.S. As I expected that contract does not have much teeths. All the player risks is contract termination and losing the club provided benefits (not much). Damages, if any, would be comensurate to the club provided benefits.

https://charney.cubiclefugitive.com...tandar-player-agreement.pdf?sfvrsn=583e24ec_2

 

[McMetal]

I could see taking a hard stance like this leading more Canadian kids to try the college route like Jost, Newhook, and Makar did. I totally get why the CHL is being such assholes about it from their business perspective, but it could hurt their brand. They get away with it because they're such a heavily scouted league and the quality of competition is second to none, but if it becomes clear that they would rather hurt their player's careers than their wallets I think that might make some kids take a second look at their other options.

 

[Balthazar]

I could see taking a hard stance like this leading more Canadian kids to try the college route like Jost, Newhook, and Makar did. I totally get why the CHL is being such assholes about it from their business perspective, but it could hurt their brand. They get away with it because they're such a heavily scouted league and the quality of competition is second to none, but if it becomes clear that they would rather hurt their player's careers than their wallets I think that might make some kids take a second look at their other options.

You're talking like owners use 19 yo kids to buy themselves new BMW's. They aren't a luxury, the league must be viable to be able to survive.

 

[McMetal]

You're talking like owners use 19 yo kids to buy themselves new BMW's. They aren't a luxury, the league must be viable to be able to survive.

Yes, but it also needs to show young players that they're the best option to get themselves a pro hockey career and the millions of dollars that could come with it. If kids worry their careers could be hurt and cost them down the line, that could change their calculus.

The league needs the kids to sign that contract. If they aren't careful, more and more players are going to explore other options, and then they don't even get to showcase the top Canadian prospects at ages 16-17, much less 19.

 

[henchman21]

It may be pretty clear in the contract, it may be another thing regarding the legality/enforcability of the contract. Especially during the current context. As you know, in matters of law it’s almost never black and white.

I might try to dig up the WHL contract to have a look.

P.S. As I expected that contract does not have much teeths. All the player risks is contract termination and losing the club provided benefits (not much). Damages, if any, would be comensurate to the club provided benefits.

https://charney.cubiclefugitive.com...tandar-player-agreement.pdf?sfvrsn=583e24ec_2

It doesn't say that damages would be commensurate with the benefits. If the is a dispute between a player and the club, it moves to the WHL office. The benefits could also be argued to be significant. That is also an old contract that has been revised since Portland messed up the whole WHL system years ago.

Here is the OHL standard contract

http://cdn.leaguestat.com/ohl/2012

9.1 The Player acknowledges that the Player has exceptional and unique skill and ability as a hockey player and that the Player’s services to be rendered hereunder are of a special, unusual and extraordinary character and upon any default of the Player of any obligations or duties imposed under this agreement, damages will not be adequate or reasonable compensation at law for the Club and agrees therefore that the Club may, in addition to any other recourse for damages that it may have, obtain injunctive and other equitable relief to prevent a breach of this agreement by the Player, including the right to enjoin the Player from playing hockey for any amateur or professional club and to compel the Player to honour his obligations under this agreement; provided that the Club recognizes the right of the Player to play in the National Hockey League (“NHL”) pursuant to the NHL/CHL Agreement.

 

[Metallo]

It doesn't say that damages would be commensurate with the benefits. If the is a dispute between a player and the club, it moves to the WHL office. The benefits could also be argued to be significant. That is also an old contract that has been revised since Portland messed up the whole WHL system years ago.

Here is the OHL standard contract

http://cdn.leaguestat.com/ohl/2012

9.1 The Player acknowledges that the Player has exceptional and unique skill and ability as a hockey player and that the Player’s services to be rendered hereunder are of a special, unusual and extraordinary character and upon any default of the Player of any obligations or duties imposed under this agreement, damages will not be adequate or reasonable compensation at law for the Club and agrees therefore that the Club may, in addition to any other recourse for damages that it may have, obtain injunctive and other equitable relief to prevent a breach of this agreement by the Player, including the right to enjoin the Player from playing hockey for any amateur or professional club and to compel the Player to honour his obligations under this agreement; provided that the Club recognizes the right of the Player to play in the National Hockey League (“NHL”) pursuant to the NHL/CHL Agreement.

The OHL language has definetly more bite. Obviously the WHL does not state that the damages would align with benefits provided but it sure is a realistic baseline. I would also argue that working for « free » is not a great benefit.

The bottom line is that the WHL would be foolish to bring a player to court over what the player does during this very special off-season since no substantial damage is done to them while they are not operating.

If the WHL was playing it would be a different matter.

 

[UncleRisto]

Annunen's team has a covid case, they're all in quarantine for a week.

 

[Foppa2118]

I don't see how the contracts wouldn't hold up. They were signed contracts. You say close to a monopoly, but that is because the majority of kids CHOOSE to play in that league. There are other options, and if it starts to be a major problem, maybe more kids will explore the other avenues. Sure the contract sucks, especially in these extraordinary circumstances, but it's a contract that seems pretty clear on its intentions

The majority of kids choose the CHL because that's the only real choice, unless they want to play in a far lesser league, or move to another country as teenagers. Some play in these lesser leagues like the Junior A (which used to be called tier II which shows it's a level below) to keep their college eligibility, but not because it's a real competitor of the CHL for those capable of playing in the CHL.

The argument of the CHL relying on 19 year olds for their business model, just proves it's a poor business model. It's a junior league that should be sustainable using typical junior players. Adults shouldn't have to be forced to give up their rights to working elsewhere just because the CHL has a bad business model and will lose money without forcing minors into waiving their rights to seek employment.

 

[henchman21]

The OHL language has definetly more bite. Obviously the WHL does not state that the damages would align with benefits provided but it sure is a realistic baseline. I would also argue that working for « free » is not a great benefit.

The bottom line is that the WHL would be foolish to bring a player to court over what the player does during this very special off-season since no substantial damage is done to them while they are not operating.

If the WHL was playing it would be a different matter.

The contract you posted from the Dub was an old one that has been revised, the current language is much closer to the OHLs. Portland screwed up a lot of things for the league as a whole, plus the whole employee issue is putting more pressure on them.

I agree the working for a small amount of reimbursement is not a great benefit, but the argument for all of these teams is that they provide near NHL level training and coaching to the kids, provide and facilitate education during and after their WHL careers, and exposure to professional league scouts.

The WHL would be foolish not to bring the player to court. If they let Byram out, they are opening a door for all the other players opting to play elsewhere. Suddenly Krebs, Cozens, Jarvis, Zary, etc can all go play elsewhere. For a few +1 players who are not quite NHL level, the NHL would rather have them in the AHL or Europe. We've seen the Euros on loan to the CHL clubs already getting pushed to Euro pro leagues as teams prefer that. For +2 players, pretty much any real prospect would be pushed to play elsewhere. Those two years are vitally important to CHL clubs and their existence, or at least that is their argument for the relationship as it stands with the NHL. If they start letting these players go elsewhere, the NHL is going to (rightfully, and arguably finally) push for the NHL/CHL agreement to be amended to lower ages. CHL teams stand that this is a fundamental business problem for them, and they couldn't exist business wise without those players. Which, if true, means certain CHL teams start to fold and the best development leagues in the world start to produce less and less talent. That is a problem for all of hockey, again, if you believe the CHL teams on that. The second they give in on any player they have rights over out, this house of cards starts to crumble. Now I am on the side that the agreements need changed and the CHL exaggerates the extent of the real issue. I would love for this whole system to be changed and amended all the way through, but the CHL is going to fight tooth and nail to maintain their status.

Substantial is a tricky definition. If Byram went to Sweden and blew his knee out, he'd miss the whole WHL season. That would be substantial to Vancouver.

Fundamentally, I agree that Byram should be allowed to go. I would say the CHL (and NCAA) need to make some drastic changes to their model. I'd like to see players actually paid a salary and more contractual freedom to play elsewhere. With where these organizations stand on this issue, they are going to fight any of those changes with their full force. Even if it makes sense for every other party, as long as the CHL maintains their stance, they will fight.

 

[Foppa2118]

The health and training benefits, as well as the coaching CHL players receive, benefit the team just as much, if not more so the player.

Especially when the vast majority of CHLers don't make the NHL, but they ALL play in the CHL. Their entire goal is to be competitive and win games after all, and that requires players playing at their best. So that's a wash.

It isn't something that should be in lieu of pay.

 

[Metallo]

The contract you posted from the Dub was an old one that has been revised, the current language is much closer to the OHLs. Portland screwed up a lot of things for the league as a whole, plus the whole employee issue is putting more pressure on them.

I agree the working for a small amount of reimbursement is not a great benefit, but the argument for all of these teams is that they provide near NHL level training and coaching to the kids, provide and facilitate education during and after their WHL careers, and exposure to professional league scouts.

The WHL would be foolish not to bring the player to court. If they let Byram out, they are opening a door for all the other players opting to play elsewhere. Suddenly Krebs, Cozens, Jarvis, Zary, etc can all go play elsewhere. For a few +1 players who are not quite NHL level, the NHL would rather have them in the AHL or Europe. We've seen the Euros on loan to the CHL clubs already getting pushed to Euro pro leagues as teams prefer that. For +2 players, pretty much any real prospect would be pushed to play elsewhere. Those two years are vitally important to CHL clubs and their existence, or at least that is their argument for the relationship as it stands with the NHL. If they start letting these players go elsewhere, the NHL is going to (rightfully, and arguably finally) push for the NHL/CHL agreement to be amended to lower ages. CHL teams stand that this is a fundamental business problem for them, and they couldn't exist business wise without those players. Which, if true, means certain CHL teams start to fold and the best development leagues in the world start to produce less and less talent. That is a problem for all of hockey, again, if you believe the CHL teams on that. The second they give in on any player they have rights over out, this house of cards starts to crumble. Now I am on the side that the agreements need changed and the CHL exaggerates the extent of the real issue. I would love for this whole system to be changed and amended all the way through, but the CHL is going to fight tooth and nail to maintain their status.

Substantial is a tricky definition. If Byram went to Sweden and blew his knee out, he'd miss the whole WHL season. That would be substantial to Vancouver.

Fundamentally, I agree that Byram should be allowed to go. I would say the CHL (and NCAA) need to make some drastic changes to their model. I'd like to see players actually paid a salary and more contractual freedom to play elsewhere. With where these organizations stand on this issue, they are going to fight any of those changes with their full force. Even if it makes sense for every other party, as long as the CHL maintains their stance, they will fight.

To be clear, I have this position only for the current period of time before the WHL restarts and not for any player in particular (not thinking about Byram specifically).

Sueing would be a bad idea for the WHL because:
-the length of time before they could get a favorable judgement would far exceed the off-season duration. I even doubt they could get an injunction in time to stop the player. Courts are crowded.
-Legal fees would most probably trump any monetary award.
-Chances off winning are not that high since the league is not operating.
-It’s just very bad PR.
-Sueing is a last resort and they should try to find a good arrangement to help their players stay in game shape and develop.

Sueing a player would be a complete failure by the team and WHL.

I think they are taking this hard stance because they don’t want to deal with the situation and « open the door », but if they were to receive an honest request they would be better to genuinely entertain it and find a creative solution than to stone wall the player.

 

[Foppa2118]

but if they were to receive an honest request they would be better to genuinely entertain it and find a creative solution than to stone wall the player.

Well we know they received a genuine request from Byram and they refused. Likely many other players as well.

 

[Metallo]

Well we know they received a genuine request from Byram and they refused. Likely many other players as well.

Oh I was not aware of that. Can you share the source?

Their position is stronger for a player with an NHL contract as they can use that partnership to pressure the player. But the pressure from undrafted players would mount if they are unable to restart and there are other options.

 

[Foppa2118]

Oh I was not aware of that. Can you share the source?

Their position is stronger for a player with an NHL contract as they can use that partnership to pressure the player. But the pressure from undrafted players would mount if they are unable to restart and there are other options.

Not exactly confirmation but it's a safe bet this is true. We've heard rumors the WHL explicitly denied this as well.

Which means they've literally prevented him from earning a living when the WHL season isn't even guaranteed to return in January. How does that mesh with the claim that they're helping players develop into pros, in lieu of payment, and in return for waiving their rights to earn a living. They're not even holding up their end of the lopsided bargain.

Google translated:

"SportExpressen also has information that Colorado Avalanche's first round last summer, Bowen Byram, is on the market to play in Sweden during the autumn."

Fylld kvot – men fler på väg?

 

[Metallo]

Maybe the WHL is in reflection:
« There have been no discussions as of yet in terms of allowing current WHL players to suit up in various Junior A leagues around Western Canada, though that may be a talking point during a general managers meeting next week. »
‘January 8 is a firm start date:’ Robison - Prince Albert Daily Herald

 

[Foppa2118]

Maybe the WHL is in reflection:
« There have been no discussions as of yet in terms of allowing current WHL players to suit up in various Junior A leagues around Western Canada, though that may be a talking point during a general managers meeting next week. »
‘January 8 is a firm start date:’ Robison - Prince Albert Daily Herald

Yeah that was either a poorly worded sentence in that article by the writer, or some intentionally misleading BS, because the WHL commissioner said this right after that in the article.

“We’ve allowed players to practice and train with Junior A clubs, but they haven’t been allowed to play games.”

So they obviously had talks about not allowing them to play right now in Junior A, since they’ve prevented them from playing the training camp games so far. It's doubtful no one has discussed the regular season yet either.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Not exactly confirmation but it's a safe bet this is true. We've heard rumors the WHL explicitly denied this as well.

Which means they've literally prevented him from earning a living when the WHL season isn't even guaranteed to return in January. How does that mesh with the claim that they're helping players develop into pros, in lieu of payment, and in return for waiving their rights to earn a living. They're not even holding up their end of the lopsided bargain.

Google translated:

"SportExpressen also has information that Colorado Avalanche's first round last summer, Bowen Byram, is on the market to play in Sweden during the autumn."

Fylld kvot – men fler på väg?

That was right before it came out Grieg and one other player were denied going to a third tier Swedish team too. But yeah we don’t know how close Byram was to officially asking/preparing to go. It’s interesting the exceptional player 15 year old Bedard actually went over there just to train.

At this point tho it’s late enough Byram should just focus on the WJC and Avs camp, this was a lot more pressing in early September.

 

[Foppa2118]

That was right before it came out Grieg and one other player were denied going to a third tier Swedish team too. But yeah we don’t know how close Byram was to officially asking/preparing to go. It’s interesting the exceptional player 15 year old Bedard actually went over there just to train.

At this point tho it’s late enough Byram should just focus on the WJC and Avs camp, this was a lot more pressing in early September.

I think it could come back up if the WHL season gets delayed, and either the NHL does too, or Byram doesn't make the Avs.

There's going to be a lot of pressure from the Avalanche to not allow Byram to miss a full year of prime development.

 

[Metallo]

Yeah that was either a poorly worded sentence in that article by the writer, or some intentionally misleading BS, because the WHL commissioner said this right after that in the article.

“We’ve allowed players to practice and train with Junior A clubs, but they haven’t been allowed to play games.”

So they obviously had talks about not allowing them to play right now in Junior A, since they’ve prevented them from playing the training camp games so far. It's doubtful no one has discussed the regular season yet either.

I took it (positively) as they are still evaluating the situation. Let’s see what comes from their GM meeting.

 

[Foppa2118]

Reports like this are going to give the CHL pause in returning to play with junior players.

It was a small sample from Ohio State athletes, but 15% of those that recovered from COVID had signs of inflammation in their heart called myocarditis. This condition is believed to be responsible for 7-20% of the cardiac related deaths in sports.

Ohio State is among the Big 10 who have decided not to return to play yet due to health risk concerns.

This is more of a risk for athletes because they have a higher rate of sudden cardiac death than the average person, since they exert themselves so much more.

It's still too early to know how prevalent this may be, and the risk for the average athlete is still very low, but for the small percentage of people it could effect, it could be very dangerous and even life threatening.

15% of college athletes showed signs of heart damage after COVID. Should they sit on the sidelines to be safe?

 

[UncleRisto]

The interesting thing about this is, it's not true.

 

[Balthazar]

The interesting thing about this is, it's not true.

Which part is not true? The intriguing talents or where to rank Barron?

 

[UncleRisto]

Which part is not true? The intriguing talents or where to rank Barron?

The intriguing talents.

 

[S E P H]

The intriguing talents.

Pretty much, it's hard to rank Barron because he's filled around a lot of potential #4 defenders and #3 centres. Besides Newhook, there is no top talent in the system forward-wise besides Weiss and it's still the question if he can overcome his Smeagol body.