2020-21 Norris Trophy candidates: Adam Fox, Victor Hedman, Cale Makar

[majormajor]

Suuuuure! Keep saying that to yourself. Thats why the Rangers were god awful defensively, and last I looked Fox is part of that awful defense. So, he is the best among the worst!

The big problem with the Rangers D is that they only have one Adam Fox.

When he is on the ice they give up far far fewer goals than when he is on the bench. 1.95 goals against per 60 minutes is one of the better numbers in the league.

	GF/60	GA/60
Adam Fox	2.70	1.95
Cale Makar	3.66	2.24
Victor Hedman	2.65	2.65

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I think Makar was the best D this year, but Fox was also great. As long as Hedman doesn't win I will be okay.

 

[majormajor]

Why was Cale Makar the best D?

Start with these insane numbers and then work your way through some of the obvious controls and questions.

	GF/60	GA/60
Adam Fox	2.70	1.95
Cale Makar	3.66	2.24
Victor Hedman	2.65	2.65

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Wasn't Makar just benefiting from his team's strength? Who wouldn't score more playing with Mackinnon and company?

Not Makar. He actually scored at a higher rate when Mackinnon and the topliners were on the bench! His numbers were best with the second and third liners. And that pattern has been the case for his whole career to date. This is just the case of a superstar scorer whose contribution goes unrecognized because people constantly use his teammate's success to explain his own. In truth, no D on the planet is more capable of scoring without help than Cale Makar.

Didn't all of those Colorado D put up insane numbers?

No, Girard and Toews put up some "big" numbers, but they're about as close to average GF/60 as they are to Makar's level! Colorado is good without Makar, they're absolutely insane with him.

But how can he be the best D if he's not elite defensively?

He's very good defensively and that's plenty good enough. The differences between "good" and "great" defensively aren't that big, the results don't change much. The differences between "good" and "great" offensively are much bigger.

 

[Daximus]

Why was Cale Makar the best D?

Start with these insane numbers and then work your way through some of the obvious controls and questions.

	GF/60	GA/60
Adam Fox	2.70	1.95
Cale Makar	3.66	2.24
Victor Hedman	2.65	2.65

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Wasn't Makar just benefiting from his team's strength? Who wouldn't score more playing with Mackinnon and company?

Not Makar. He actually scored at a higher rate when Mackinnon and the topliners were on the bench! His numbers were best with the second and third liners. And that pattern has been the case for his whole career to date. This is just the case of a superstar scorer whose contribution goes unrecognized because people constantly use his teammate's success to explain his own. In truth, no D on the planet is more capable of scoring without help than Cale Makar.

Didn't all of those Colorado D put up insane numbers?

No, Girard and Toews put up some "big" numbers, but they're about as close to average GF/60 as they are to Makar's level! Colorado is good without Makar, they're absolutely insane with him.

But how can he be the best D if he's not elite defensively?

He's very good defensively and that's plenty good enough. The differences between "good" and "great" defensively aren't that big, the results don't change much. The differences between "good" and "great" offensively are much bigger.

Its interesting that even with the best goalie out of the 3 Hedman actually prevents less goals than either of the other two. Not only that but he contributes less offensively than the other two as well.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Makar has a Norris coming his way eventually but I have no idea how this isn't Adam Fox. Carried a bad blueline and is already one of the smartest D out there. This kid does the little things and controls the pace so well.

He refused to play for my team and forced his way to NY. I should hate his guts. But I can't despise hockey IQ like his, this guy has it in spades. Like Gaudreau was a late round find so was Fox, he simply thinks the game at another level than most players do.

 

[majormajor]

Its interesting that even with the best goalie out of the 3 Hedman actually prevents less goals than either of the other two. Not only that but he contributes less offensively than the other two as well.

To be fair, this was Hedman's worst year. He was playing through a significant injury. He just doesn't belong in this discussion this year, it's sad that the writers are taking his candidacy seriously and forcing us to dunk on him. In a healthy season Hedman is high end defensively.

 

[Daximus]

To be fair, this was Hedman's worst year. He was playing through a significant injury. He just doesn't belong in this discussion this year, it's sad that the writers are taking his candidacy seriously and forcing us to dunk on him. In a healthy season Hedman is high end defensively.

Yeah reputation plays into every voting award. Who do you think deserved the nom over him?

 

[majormajor]

Yeah reputation plays into every voting award. Who do you think deserved the nom over him?

Maybe Theodore or McAvoy.

 

[Daximus]

Maybe Theodore or McAvoy.

I might be mistaken but I think Theodore's GF/60 was actually higher than even Makar's and GA/60 was lower.

 

[Pavels Dog]

For those who like to complain about the Norris being a reputation award, it sure seems to help if you make flashy highlight reel plays that get shared all over social media. It's not like Fox and Makar have been quietly chugging away for years before getting consideration.

Meanwhile a guy like Shea Theodore barely seems to exist.

 

[rangersfansince08]

Can you explain what doesn’t impress you about Fox’s defense?

The fact that he plays defense while being 5'11. He only deserves the Norris when he grows 4 more inches

 

[rangersfansince08]

All of them, he got abused against a hard fore check! OVERRATED!!!

Fox defense?? I don't think so! Watched him get ABUSED by hard fore checkers consistantly!!

Why did you make the same post twice within 4 minutes of each other?

Suuuuure! Keep saying that to yourself. Thats why the Rangers were god awful defensively, and last I looked Fox is part of that awful defense. So, he is the best among the worst!

Were the Rangers god awful defensively? They were middle of the pack overall. This might also shock your but 12 forwards, 5 other defenseman and a goalie also impacted how the defense played each game.

 

[Rafafouille]

Save percentage at even strength while player is on the ice


Makar: .887%
Hedman: .894%
Fox: .919%

Two of those three play with a vezina trophy finalist.

 

[Reggiet2]

Could you imagine what Jakob Chychrun would have done if he played 24 games against Buffalo, NJ, & Philly. Instead of 18 G 23A, he might of scored 30G and 44A. And Arizona is not as offensively gifted as the Rangers!

 

[CartographerNo611]

Delete

 

[tellermine]

Aaa.. The best for flashy scoring defenceman of the year awards.

 

[Reggiet2]

Aaa.. The best for flashy scoring defenceman of the year awards.

I wouldn't call Fox flashy, more like 2ndary assist king. Lets give the Norris to the one who padded stats against the 3 worst teams in hockey and got his ass wupped against good teams!

 

[Reggiet2]

BTW, how many points did Fox get when they needed to win games at the end of the season against real teams, oh yeah ZERO!!!

 

[wetcoast]

I think too many people are going to jump to conclusions based on a weird COVID year with teams not having a normal schedule at all.

Sure Hedman has a reputation factor going on here but Fox has an easier schedule ie the statistical beating up of 3 teams that really helps in his voting here.

How voters deal with it is up in the air IMO although I think Makar might pull it off but who knows.

 

[Grifter3511]

I think too many people are going to jump to conclusions based on a weird COVID year with teams not having a normal schedule at all.

Sure Hedman has a reputation factor going on here but Fox has an easier schedule ie the statistical beating up of 3 teams that really helps in his voting here.

How voters deal with it is up in the air IMO although I think Makar might pull it off but who knows.

Were the Rangers, a team that missed the playoffs, anymore capable of beating up on the bottom feeders in their division than Tampa Bay in their division or Colorado in theirs?

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Were the Rangers, a team that missed the playoffs, anymore capable of beating up on the bottom feeders in their division than Tampa Bay in their division or Colorado in theirs?

Everyone had weak sisters to beat up on so I'm not sure why Fox is getting targeted here. I would also say Fox had the least to work with but by most metrics still came out ahead.

 

[OskarOskarius]

The big problem with the Rangers D is that they only have one Adam Fox.

When he is on the ice they give up far far fewer goals than when he is on the bench. 1.95 goals against per 60 minutes is one of the better numbers in the league.

	GF/60	GA/60
Adam Fox	2.70	1.95
Cale Makar	3.66	2.24
Victor Hedman	2.65	2.65

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I think Makar was the best D this year, but Fox was also great. As long as Hedman doesn't win I will be okay.

Horrible understanding of stats. For one, how much time did Cale Makar spend shorthanded? How much in powerplay? Just counting per 60 is ridiculous.

 

[wetcoast]

Were the Rangers, a team that missed the playoffs, anymore capable of beating up on the bottom feeders in their division than Tampa Bay in their division or Colorado in theirs?

Fox really feasted stats wise on the 3 really weak teams, Makar and Hedman had more balanced scoring.

Not that I think voters look at that sort of stuff much really.

I think, wrongly, that the fact that 2 guys made the playoffs and one didn’t will factor in more.

 

[Tawnos]

Horrible understanding of stats. For one, how much time did Cale Makar spend shorthanded? How much in powerplay? Just counting per 60 is ridiculous.

Meanwhile, if you bothered to check the link and the stat the poster cited, you'd see it was 5v5 per 60.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Personally I wouldn’t give the Hart, or Norris to someone who missed the playoffs unless they just blew the field away.

But, maybe some people feel the same way about Makar missing games, so I guess there are issues on both sides there.

Hedman will get a lot of votes from the old-school voters, and probably no 1st place votes from the advanced stats crowd.

It will be interesting to see how it unfolds.

 

[Tawnos]

I think too many people are going to jump to conclusions based on a weird COVID year with teams not having a normal schedule at all.

Sure Hedman has a reputation factor going on here but Fox has an easier schedule ie the statistical beating up of 3 teams that really helps in his voting here.

How voters deal with it is up in the air IMO although I think Makar might pull it off but who knows.

This post implies that there's still voting to be done and that they're choosing between the 3 finalists. The Norris winner has already been decided.