2020/2021 Around the League Thread | Part 3

[I am toxic]

Well i don't play goalie and don't live with one but have a few friends who are and work with a few also. Anyway i'm sure you meant coaching them which i don't.

Don't respect my opinion....that's fine here are takes from pro goalies working with the NHL

Hirsch explains how to fix the problem with goalie equipment - Sportsnet.ca



As far as your take on goalies getting hurt. It's a contact sport? Hitting fighting tripping crosschecking slashing high sticking blocking shots and getting hit by shots. All the abuse shouldn't just apply to skaters.

I wonder how Luongo's body felt post 2011 as compared to his teammates?

Yeah, we're done. Between an appeal to (a poor) authority using a clip that was done 2 years before the 2018 rule changes, to a whataboutism. Don't respect your opinion on this is understating things.

 

[sting101]

Yeah, we're done. Between an appeal to (a poor) authority using a clip that was done 2 years before the 2018 rule changes, to a whataboutism. Don't respect your opinion on this is understating things.

feeling are mutual. we can agree on that at least

 

[EpochLink]

Yes watched some of that game today. They looked deflated. Awful intensity

Eichel has checked out of Buffalo, he never wanted to be there. Also, outside of New Jersey..Taylor Hall is a cesspool of suck.

That guy was looking for a long term contract after this year...his production sucks.

 

[I am toxic]

feeling are mutual. we can agree on that at least

I never resorted to an appeal to authority. You did. Twice. One of them out of date, and another out to lunch. And threw in a whataboutism.

I laid out facts, my reasoning, and used logic.

We can agree to totally disagree, but the feeling is definitely not mutual.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Here’s a good question on semantics (@bandwagonesque). Why is everyone calling this the “2020-2021” season when literally none of the season (or training camp) took place in 2020? Just for consistency with past seasons?

 

[Vector]

It is purely to maintain consistency, as you said. Trying to grasp at some semblance of normalcy to legitimize this weird season in the record books.

 

[StreetHawk]

It is purely to maintain consistency, as you said. Trying to grasp at some semblance of normalcy to legitimize this weird season in the record books.

the 48 game sseason of 12-13 is still regarded as 12-13. NHL calendar year for accounting purposes is July 1 - June 30.

 

[VibinCanuck]

I do wonder what an Eichel trade may look like. I doubt no one can out bid LA or New York if they go for him, but man is it tempting to see the Canucks go for him. You bet on his high end talent. It would definitely mean Horvat is going the other way though...

 

[canuckking1]

Hope LA doesn’t win the Eichel sweepstakes.

 

[timw33]

Article from athletic today talking about how Stalock and Marco Rossi both developed myocarditis (heart inflammation) from COVID. Stalock was completely asymptomatic the entire time.

This is the kind of stuff that scares the **** out of me about COVID.

 

[Bures Elbow]

I do wonder what an Eichel trade may look like. I doubt no one can out bid LA or New York if they go for him, but man is it tempting to see the Canucks go for him. You bet on his high end talent. It would definitely mean Horvat is going the other way though...

Miller + Horvat + pick?

I'd do it if it means Pettersson + Eichal down the middle. We'd need to find another winger for Peterrsson but maybe through free agency down the line...

 

[Fatass]

Miller + Horvat + pick?

I'd do it if it means Pettersson + Eichal down the middle. We'd need to find another winger for Peterrsson but maybe through free agency down the line...

Hall?

 

[canuckking1]

Wonder if it was Horvat carrying Leivo or if that Knee injury did a number on him. He's been bad this year.

 

[mossey3535]

Well, Dryden is inaccurate in a lot of his comments. (I have no idea where he is getting the 10 inch pad width from, maybe he is confusing depth with width. Whatever.)

Let's get to some meaningful specifics:



Wrong. NHL Rule 11.2 states the following:


Let's consider Dryden's comment about the chesty:


Well, NHL Rule 11.3 finishes with the following:


Now, it may be that Vasy's chesty is legal in the crouch position, and then raises the shoulder cap protection when down in butterfly. If that is the case, then rule 11.3 could easily be amended to include the wording "or in the normal butterfly positon". We've been through this with Garth Snow, this is not a good argument for compromising goalie safety when a simple rule enforcement or rule amendment will do. And also not a good argument for compromising the game with a change in net size.

With regards to Dryden's other comments about goalies never getting to their feet (ie. remaining in butterfly and relying on backside pushes or RVH pushes off the post) I believe he is totally wrong. The butterfly and related equipment designed for it has been around for well over a decade, closer to two decades, and goalies are still taught to get on their feet when the puck is more than a stick length away in the pie, and in many other circumstances. Read @mossey3535 's recent posts about post integration, and staying down too long.

There was an excellent thread on the old goaliestore forum about the King, and how he played deeper in his net allowing for more time to react to shots. iirc it led to failure, and a difficult adjustment period as Lundvist had to (re?)learn to gain depth.

As far as I was following the lastest in developments a couple years ago, in addition to concepts like head trajectory and quiet eye, the other idea was "the box" (not sure what they actually call it). The idea being that (assuming that the goalie is square to the puck) there is a box in front of the goalie that the puck must pass though to hit the net. Because of angles, the further in front of the net/goalie, the smaller the box. So while goalies are taught to still get square to the puck in the shortest distance possible and then gain depth, the point is they are still taught to gain depth, and doing it on their skates is the fastest way to do that. Doing it in butterfly using backside pushes like Dryden is suggesting is slower and opens holes.

The solution is not to make the nets bigger. The solution is to make better passes in the offensive zone (think late 70's/early '80's Red Army) and get the goalie moving while down. Take a look at Miller's power play goal against STL in game 1 of last years playoff, where Tanev and Edler were on the point, they were up 4-2 and just killing time on the PP, so they moved the puck around.

Or continue to allow crappy passing in the NHL, and make nets bigger.

I already had to deal with this dumb article by Dryden in my hockey player group chat:

 

[I am toxic]

I already had to deal with this dumb article by Dryden in my hockey player group chat:

Yeah, Dryden's books are excellent, was kind of shocked that he made some of the comments he made, doesn't seem to take the 2018 rule changes into account, and doesn't appear to have a proper understanding of modern technique.

The one thing I think could still be done is reduce the Limiting Distance Size of the leg pad from 55% knee to pelvis to 50% or possibly even 45% (plus the floor to knee plus 4 inches of course) - I haven't really thought about it much, but given the kneepads all goalies wear, I have a gut feeling the thigh rise is giving 5 hole coverage while in butterfly while not really adding to the goalies' safety.

 

[Intangibos]

I'd way rather watch a 3-2 game than a 7-5 game. The same tension, ebb and flow aren't there when goals are scored every 5-10 minutes. But this is related to the larger question of whether sports are supposed to meet some aesthetic standard derived from their history as seen from a certain starting point or just be entertaining. A 7-5 game is still hockey.

I'd also rather watch a 7-5 game than a slow 1-0 game (fast paced 1-0 games can still be exciting, but I will never support a team playing trap-style hockey)

 

[Fatass]

I'd also rather watch a 7-5 game than a slow 1-0 game (fast paced 1-0 games can still be exciting, but I will never support a team playing trap-style hockey)

Then unless we get GRetzky, Coffee, Kuri, and the rest of the 80’s OIlers you aren’t going to be supporting a winner.

 

[mossey3535]

Well i don't play goalie and don't live with one but have a few friends who are and work with a few also. Anyway i'm sure you meant coaching them which i don't.

Don't respect my opinion....that's fine here are takes from pro goalies working with the NHL

Hirsch explains how to fix the problem with goalie equipment - Sportsnet.ca



As far as your take on goalies getting hurt. It's a contact sport? Hitting fighting tripping crosschecking slashing high sticking blocking shots and getting hit by shots. All the abuse shouldn't just apply to skaters.

I wonder how Luongo's body felt post 2011 as compared to his teammates?

Usually Vally has ok takes but this one is 4 years old.

First of all, yeah ok you could reduce thigh rise. I play with a suboptimal thigh rise right now because I bought the pad I could afford, not the one that would give me the most coverage. I'm probably missing 1.5" of thigh rise. Honestly I don't give up more 5-hole goals because I've adjusted my technique. I'm sure NHL goalies who are much more skilled will do the same.

The main issue I have with the video is that goalies will just groove their timing in the new pads. Top goalies even in the 80's had 0.900 save percentage. You could argue that they also had 14" wide pads then of course, but they also had slimmer upper body stuff.

Also most clear sighted shots aren't breakaways or odd-man rushes. They're probably point shots and other low danger shots...there just aren't that many high danger chances per game. So the 1/30 that he quotes at the beginning wouldn't change!

So basically you aren't going to change clear shot save percentages. Why? Because head trajectory has really reduced the importance of timing. If you let your puck tracking do all the work, your body follow naturally. You don't have to "time" anything. The things you do have to time are blocking saves where you are already dropping pretty early. You can also combat the thigh rise increase using good old stick discipline. Which is admittedly a bit of a lost art - but now you're just going to select for the goalies who are faster and have better technique.

I could go on and on but save percentage has risen every time goalie equipment has been reduced. Why? Because it weeds out the people who are using their equipment to get by.

What they need to do is increase the number of high danger shots by both teams in the game. And that's either the coaching staffs coming around to modern times and coaching more offence, or some kind of rule change to discourage obstruction.

A personal pet peeve of mine is blocked shots. As a goalie, they're kind of iffy and I don't get to actually feel the puck. As a fan, they're boring as shit. I've often advocating banning players going to the ice to block shots. Torts style collapsing defence is too easy and too effective. Every other sports league has tons of rules designed solely to increase offence. That's what the NHL needs to do. But increasing the nets is dumb and decreasing goalie equipment doesn't work.

 

[Intangibos]

Then unless we get GRetzky, Coffee, Kuri, and the rest of the 80’s OIlers you aren’t going to be supporting a winner.

Uhh, I don't think you need those players to score more than 1 goal a game

3-2 (Tight, fast paced hockey) > 7-5 (wide open no defence hockey) > 1-0 (trap hockey)

 

[Fatass]

Uhh, I don't think you need those players to score more than 1 goal a game

3-2 (Tight, fast paced hockey) > 7-5 (wide open no defence hockey) > 1-0 (trap hockey)

As long as we win.

 

[Intangibos]

As long as we win.

Well I was going to say at this rate there is little hope of me supporting a winner in any case

 

[mossey3535]

Yeah, Dryden's books are excellent, was kind of shocked that he made some of the comments he made, doesn't seem to take the 2018 rule changes into account, and doesn't appear to have a proper understanding of modern technique.

The one thing I think could still be done is reduce the Limiting Distance Size of the leg pad from 55% knee to pelvis to 50% or possibly even 45% (plus the floor to knee plus 4 inches of course) - I haven't really thought about it much, but given the kneepads all goalies wear, I have a gut feeling the thigh rise is giving 5 hole coverage while in butterfly while not really adding to the goalies' safety.

Yeah I argue against reducing goalie equipment size in general because it's ineffective and historically hasn't worked. I think the limits of equipment regulation have been reached - Kenesky became popular two seasons ago because they were building bomb-proof chest protectors that adhered to the new rules. When every NHL goalie is looking to change his chest protector because they're getting hurt you know it can't get too much smaller.

One thing that annoys me is that all these changes are to equipment width because it reduces blocking area. Ok that makes sense. But people put up some guys with thicker gear as examples of marshmallow men - actually thicker gear can be a detriment. You don't block more by having thicker gear. All bulk in that direction does is make you more protective while also decreasing your mobility. So if Khudobin wants to puff himself up it should be fine as long as it doesn't increase width.

But if they want to keep restricting equipment, part of me says - bring it f***ing on. As long as it doesn't result in more injuries (which we saw in the recent changes). It's never worked before, why would it work now? All they're going to do is keep weeding out the shitty goalies who got to the show because of luck and politics. Then athletic technically sound guys will be more prevalent and save percentage will go up again. Unintended consequences and all that.

 

[I am toxic]

Yeah I argue against reducing goalie equipment size in general because it's ineffective and historically hasn't worked. I think the limits of equipment regulation have been reached - Kenesky became popular two seasons ago because they were building bomb-proof chest protectors that adhered to the new rules. When every NHL goalie is looking to change his chest protector because they're getting hurt you know it can't get too much smaller.

One thing that annoys me is that all these changes are to equipment width because it reduces blocking area. Ok that makes sense. But people put up some guys with thicker gear as examples of marshmallow men - actually thicker gear can be a detriment. You don't block more by having thicker gear. All bulk in that direction does is make you more protective while also decreasing your mobility. So if Khudobin wants to puff himself up it should be fine as long as it doesn't increase width.

But if they want to keep restricting equipment, part of me says - bring it f***ing on. As long as it doesn't result in more injuries (which we saw in the recent changes). It's never worked before, why would it work now? All they're going to do is keep weeding out the shitty goalies who got to the show because of luck and politics. Then athletic technically sound guys will be more prevalent and save percentage will go up again. Unintended consequences and all that.

Yeah. I watch my peewee and bantam goalies get the biggest pads they can, and they struggle getting used to moving in them. My guy has always worn the smallest pads that still protect, and relies on mobility. I haven't done the math, but I'm pretty certain that being in the right place/position and gaining a couple inches of depth will increase the goalie shadow/net coverage more (I think far more, given angles) that an extra inch of width.

Now, my guy is a wierdo when it comes to goaltending, Alex was always on me about it, but he's an outside in goalie that commences play like a D at the top of the circles/ringette line. That's where he starts when the play is outside the zone, I don't recommend it to any of my other goalies but for now he is having fun, learning how not to lose the net when he is way out. Our shooters love trying to see if they can beat him to the post, so he has to be quick/mobile - he is also our 1C so he is good on skates. Unfortunately cannot try out for our Midget A1 team as both goalie and player, has to pick one.

Anyway, like I say, I don't do that with any of my goalies because it's not what Pascal taught me in Level 1, and it's not what Alex taught us. But for my guy, it has led to some fun moments - standing behind to the side of the net listening to kids showing up for the next game make fun of the "goalie who thinks he's a defenseman" (until they see him stop breakaways) and the time we were spectating in middle ice with his grandmother, we're watching the play was in the other end, and there is this tapping on the glass at center ice - ohsix had skated out from his usual spot on the ringette line to say hi to his granny. We're like "GET BACK IN NET!"

Anyway, mobility is fun.

 

[M2Beezy]

I do wonder what an Eichel trade may look like. I doubt no one can out bid LA or New York if they go for him, but man is it tempting to see the Canucks go for him. You bet on his high end talent. It would definitely mean Horvat is going the other way though...

Probably something Like Horvat, 2023 2nd, Juolevi, Virtanen, Gadvocich and 2021 5th round pick for Eichel and 2021 4th round pick. Maybe move some picks around to balance out but could work out. Role with this next season:

Hoglander Pettersson Boeser
Miller Eichel Eriksson
Podz Lind Gaudette
Motte Beagle Macewan

 

[canuckking1]

Sens are a fun hockey team. If they had average goaltending they'd be right in the hunt right now.