Speculation: 2019 Off-Season Thread - Part 5

[Rschmitz]

Because really our only blue chip defenseman prospect is cal foote. By 2020 there is a strong chance he can make the nhl roster

Even under the assumption that Priskie doesn't mind going through the pipeline and not getting immediate opportunities to play(why would he want to do that), he's still behind Cernak and then there is Sergachev.

The only avenue I see for him here, is if he signs to replace Shattenkirk next year, and then we have him waiting in the wings to possibly replace Sergachev if Andrei is wanting major $$$ and we have to trade him.

 

[God King Fudge]

"If he makes the team"? That's kind of the entire problem, you can't gloss over it as if it's a given. This league is chock full of good players who believed in themselves, but almost didn't get the opportunity until they positioned themselves well through free agency. You don't even have to look that far. Our championship team is full of guys who were outcasts. Yanni Gourde would be in some European league if we didn't give him a shot.

We may sign him, but he left a great team in Washington, if he's coming here, it's not because it's a good career decision.

I didn't gloss over it. That's why I said it? Lol.

IF he makes the team then it's a fantastic career decision because it gives him a very good opportunity to be a part of an elite team and set himself up for a nice payday. He may do the same thing with a better spot in Montreal or FL, but it would be in a tougher situation where he might be thrown in above his head.

 

[DFC]

I didn't gloss over it. That's why I said it? Lol.

IF he makes the team then it's a fantastic career decision because it gives him a very good opportunity to be a part of an elite team and set himself up for a nice payday. He may do the same thing with a better spot in Montreal or FL, but it would be in a tougher situation where he might be thrown in above his head.

If he has a crazy forward thinking agent, he might realize we might have to trade a defenseman or two who's blocking his path, but 3 years from now money might be much less an issue, since we have the core, minus Point, locked in.

 

[God King Fudge]

If he has a crazy forward thinking agent, he might realize we might have to trade a defenseman or two who's blocking his path, but 3 years from now money might be much less an issue, since we have the core, minus Point, locked in.

Any player's boom potential with this team is enormous right now. That's why Shattenkirk came here for less money. He knows he has the potential to do something big here. It'd be the same mentality for this kid. It'll be a tougher road than either of the other locations, but the potential here is far beyond what he'd get with either of the other teams mentioned. It'd be a classic player gambling on himself. Kuch did it with the bridge (although he didn't have any leverage, but he knew if he took that deal and preformed, he'd write his own deal on the next one).

 

[Rschmitz]

Size up front is much better than size out back.

Even if that were true, the organizational philosophy has always been big and athletic in the back and speed and skill in the front.

 

[Todd1a]

Even under the assumption that Priskie doesn't mind going through the pipeline and not getting immediate opportunities to play(why would he want to do that), he's still behind Cernak and then there is Sergachev.

The only avenue I see for him here, is if he signs to replace Shattenkirk next year, and then we have him waiting in the wings to possibly replace Sergachev if Andrei is wanting major $$$ and we have to trade him.

Ya but knowing the coaching staff they will move sergachev back to the left side they probably would go Cernak, foote and priskie as the RHD in the 2020-2021 season. I’m sure they would explain they would like him to start in the ahl for a while 6 months or 1 year.

 

[Todd1a]

If he has a crazy forward thinking agent, he might realize we might have to trade a defenseman or two who's blocking his path, but 3 years from now money might be much less an issue, since we have the core, minus Point, locked in.

Yep and shattenkirk is one year and done here Coburn is 1-2 years left here and done . Rutta and schenn one year and probably done . There is no one blocking this kid and we wouldn’t ask him to be a top 4 defenseman just the bottom pair to start out.

 

[These Are The Days]

Sheesh now Laine is whining at the press. You know what? I hope the GM's on every team just get together for a big collective of "f*** you guys" and start the season without these RFA's waiting for hell to freeze over. Even Point. Stop waiting for someone else dude...

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Sheesh now Laine is whining at the press. You know what? I hope the GM's on every team just get together for a big collective of "**** you guys" and start the season without these RFA's waiting for hell to freeze over. Even Point. Stop waiting for someone else dude...

It's called a Collective Bargaining Agreement for a reason. I don't blame players for voicing their frustrations with their employers. I don't blame the owners for trying to get the best deal on their employees. Its the nature of the beast, and if you feel a fellow co-worker is up for a raise and you work just as much and as hard as him, but his review is up first, you would wait to see how his goes before you go into yours.

 

[Rschmitz]

I didn't gloss over it. That's why I said it? Lol.

IF he makes the team then it's a fantastic career decision because it gives him a very good opportunity to be a part of an elite team and set himself up for a nice payday. He may do the same thing with a better spot in Montreal or FL, but it would be in a tougher situation where he might be thrown in above his head.

Making the team or not making the team is entirely why he wouldn't sign here.

 

[DFC]

Even if that were true, the organizational philosophy has always been big and athletic in the back and speed and skill in the front.

I think that's changing. It's just a matter of finding the "right" big player(s) up front. It has to be a guy who can play in the top six, and facilitate through physicality. Those aren't easy to find, but it does seem like we're trying to draft kids who can fill that role.

 

[These Are The Days]

It's called a Collective Bargaining Agreement for a reason. I don't blame players for voicing their frustrations with their employers. I don't blame the owners for trying to get the best deal on their employees. Its the nature of the beast, and if you feel a fellow co-worker is up for a raise and you work just as much and as hard as him, but his review is up first, you would wait to see how his goes before you go into yours.

You're right. But Point doesn't need Marner's permission and vice versa to find out Point is worth as much as Stamkos. Players are worth what they are relative to their talent, production and role to a team not because of "But look what HE makes." The stalling by whoever the hell won't put pen to paper is shameless and players have only themselves to blame for not having deals yet. GM's are not stupid and I sincerely doubt the offers these guys have been offered are anything less than fair but every agent says "No son! Wait for it.... Someone's gonna get the big one and then we have more leverage" it's toxic. Unless Laine was offered less than $8 million AAV he has no right to use the words "I'm ready for anything" as if he needs a new team. Doesn't know where he's gonna play.... Bitch.... Did you NOT see the cap barely budge an inch? Do you NOT see nearly every team maxed out to their cap limit? Your team has more cap than anyone else in the league! Who the hell is gonna be able to pay you more? Who can facilitate the money to move you??

Every team got screwed by the cap not going up. Stop treating these negotiations as an indictment... There's not enough money to go around dude. Guys like Dan Girardi are rocking the unemployment line right now.

If this were not the case I'd have a different tone

 

[Master P]

YAY!

 

[Byrddog]

You're right. But Point doesn't need Marner's permission and vice versa to find out Point is worth as much as Stamkos. Players are worth what they are relative to their talent, production and role to a team not because of "But look what HE makes." The stalling by whoever the hell won't put pen to paper is shameless and players have only themselves to blame for not having deals yet. GM's are not stupid and I sincerely doubt the offers these guys have been offered are anything less than fair but every agent says "No son! Wait for it.... Someone's gonna get the big one and then we have more leverage" it's toxic. Unless Laine was offered less than $8 million AAV he has no right to use the words "I'm ready for anything" as if he needs a new team. Doesn't know where he's gonna play.... *****.... Did you NOT see the cap barely budge an inch? Do you NOT see nearly every team maxed out to their cap limit? Your team has more cap than anyone else in the league! Who the hell is gonna be able to pay you more? Who can facilitate the money to move you??

Every team got screwed by the cap not going up. Stop treating these negotiations as an indictment... There's not enough money to go around dude. Guys like Dan Girardi are rocking the unemployment line right now.

If this were not the case I'd have a different tone

Lots of truth here holding out this close to camp with the number of teams at the cap already is senseless. It is highly doubtful the he has been offered less than 8.5 per. At this point both sides may be forced on a bridge deal and the only person to blame is the agent.

 

[DFC]

You're right. But Point doesn't need Marner's permission and vice versa to find out Point is worth as much as Stamkos. Players are worth what they are relative to their talent, production and role to a team not because of "But look what HE makes."

In most cases, it's exactly the opposite of this. I mean, we have a great situation where guys are taking discounts, but it really is a "Look what HE makes" league.

 

[CupsOverCash]

In most cases, it's exactly the opposite of this. I mean, we have a great situation where guys are taking discounts, but it really is a "Look what HE makes" league.

Agree and I think we would have that here even with the tax advantage if we hadnt had those 2 runs in 2015 and 16. I think once those happened, we had some contracts come up and SY wanted to keep the band together and thats when Stamkos and Hedman made the first real moves to take discounts. I dont think those happen without the two deep runs. Then I think Kucherov's discount might not have happened if we didnt have the run in 2018. I may be in the minority here but I think our discounts have more to do with our ability to put a winner together than it does our tax situation, although I think that makes it that much more possible.

 

[Todd1a]

Lots of truth here holding out this close to camp with the number of teams at the cap already is senseless. It is highly doubtful the he has been offered less than 8.5 per. At this point both sides may be forced on a bridge deal and the only person to blame is the agent.

I heard. Silly rumor point wanted 8.5 avv per year for just a 3 year term

 

[Rschmitz]

I think that's changing. It's just a matter of finding the "right" big player(s) up front. It has to be a guy who can play in the top six, and facilitate through physicality. Those aren't easy to find, but it does seem like we're trying to draft kids who can fill that role.

Hard to tell until they use some real resources on size, because these guys they are drafting are still most likely complimentary guys.

 

[These Are The Days]

In most cases, it's exactly the opposite of this. I mean, we have a great situation where guys are taking discounts, but it really is a "Look what HE makes" league.

It is. You're not wrong. It's what agents are paid for. But my complaint was specific to Laine. His camp being in a holding pattern on the team with the most cap space in the league and just as much right to set the bar as Marner, Point, Rantanen and making subtle (not serious imo) allusions to how he's prepared for any contingency as far as going to a new team feels so silly. I can't pretend to know what was offered but unless something like 8 or 9 GM's are all just simultaneously low balling every single RFA as if it's some sort of unified conspiracy, Laine is just one of many players waiting it out at the advice of his agent. His comments show more of the problem than the actual solution to me. Sorry man but the cap didn't go up and Connor needs a new deal too. It's not anyone's fault. That's the true culprit here. Unless those locker room issues we've heard about are THAT bad I don't think the most conservative GM in the league in Chevy just woke up one day and said "I'm gonna make this difficult"

I know I'm being harsh but I'm also under the belief that these bridge deals need a new structure. This might be one year but this absolutely feels like a trend that's going to continue to happen over and over again. Every Laine possibly holding out for a Marner or Point from here on out is going to only become more problematic. About 1/6 or so of the league is at a total standstill in mid August with the situation likely dragging out longer. I'm all for players getting paid but this has got to stop.

Either the cap needs to be abolished or players need more realistic expectations of their value. I'm going option B

 

[Krewe]

I heard. Silly rumor point wanted 8.5 avv per year for just a 3 year term

not a chance. No way he should get any more than mid 6 on a bridge

 

[DFC]

It is. You're not wrong. It's what agents are paid for. But my complaint was specific to Laine. His camp being in a holding pattern on the team with the most cap space in the league and just as much right to set the bar as Marner, Point, Rantanen and making subtle (not serious imo) allusions to how he's prepared for any contingency as far as going to a new team feels so silly. I can't pretend to know what was offered but unless something like 8 or 9 GM's are all just simultaneously low balling every single RFA as if it's some sort of unified conspiracy, Laine is just one of many players waiting it out at the advice of his agent. His comments show more of the problem than the actual solution to me. Sorry man but the cap didn't go up and Connor needs a new deal too. It's not anyone's fault. That's the true culprit here. Unless those locker room issues we've heard about are THAT bad I don't think the most conservative GM in the league in Chevy just woke up one day and said "I'm gonna make this difficult"

I know I'm being harsh but I'm also under the belief that these bridge deals need a new structure. This might be one year but this absolutely feels like a trend that's going to continue to happen over and over again. Every Laine possibly holding out for a Marner or Point from here on out is going to only become more problematic. About 1/6 or so of the league is at a total standstill in mid August with the situation likely dragging out longer. I'm all for players getting paid but this has got to stop.

Either the cap needs to be abolished or players need more realistic expectations of their value. I'm going option B

If these guys end up in the KHL, then yeah. They don't owe it to us to sign in a timely fashion.

I think everyone's waiting for Marner because his negotiations have been the most public. I don't even think many people consider him the best guy on the list. It's just that he's the guy assumed to be demanding the most money, which may or may not be because of the way Dubas handled the Matthews and Nylander situation.

As for Laine's comments... I don't know. I'm all for a guy not giving the canned line, but if I were a Jets' fan, I wouldn't be thrilled with how he seems kind of luke warm about continuing in Winnipeg.

 

[Krewe]

If these guys end up in the KHL, then yeah. They don't owe it to us to sign in a timely fashion.

I think everyone's waiting for Marner because his negotiations have been the most public. I don't even think many people consider him the best guy on the list. It's just that he's the guy assumed to be demanding the most money, which may or may not be because of the way Dubas handled the Matthews and Nylander situation.

As for Laine's comments... I don't know. I'm all for a guy not giving the canned line, but if I were a Jets' fan, I wouldn't be thrilled with how he seems kind of luke warm about continuing in Winnipeg.

I don't think he is the most VALUABLE guy on the list (in a vacuum, I think point likely is due to playstyle and position), but IMO marner is the most talented at his position. The problem is that a pure playmaking winger who is average defensively is not that hot of a commodity. For a winger to be very valuable, they need to be a dynamic player like Kane or Kuch, that is a threat from anywhere in any situation, and can drive their own line. Or they need to have a skill that is unique, ie Ovi or Stone (i am aware he is the worst guy i have mentioned, but given his points, his value is surprising), where they have one great skill that is valuable. Marner doesn't strike me as someone who can be THE guy to light the lamp on his own line. He seems to be more in the MSL vein where he will team up with a sniper and then that combo could be a monster.

 

[These Are The Days]

I don't think he is the most VALUABLE guy on the list (in a vacuum, I think point likely is due to playstyle and position), but IMO marner is the most talented at his position. The problem is that a pure playmaking winger who is average defensively is not that hot of a commodity. For a winger to be very valuable, they need to be a dynamic player like Kane or Kuch, that is a threat from anywhere in any situation, and can drive their own line. Or they need to have a skill that is unique, ie Ovi or Stone (i am aware he is the worst guy i have mentioned, but given his points, his value is surprising), where they have one great skill that is valuable. Marner doesn't strike me as someone who can be THE guy to light the lamp on his own line. He seems to be more in the MSL vein where he will team up with a sniper and then that combo could be a monster.

I think you're selling MSL a bit short. He was better than Marner and could carry his line. His relationship with Stamkos was a fantastic demonstration of reciprocity. The young sniper kept MSL's production viable but MSL himself always put Stamkos in a position to succeed as a linemate. And when with Vinny both carried the other equally and independently of one another. Given the choice I take MSL any day over Marner. That's not to say Marner is bad. He's a good player. It's just that MSL currently holds the edge

MSL started his career at like 24 in the heart of the DPE. It's easy to overlook how dominant his career should have been and how dominant it actually was

 

[Felonious Python]

 

[Krewe]

I think you're selling MSL a bit short. He was better than Marner and could carry his line. His relationship with Stamkos was a fantastic demonstration of reciprocity. The young sniper kept MSL's production viable but MSL himself always put Stamkos in a position to succeed as a linemate. And when with Vinny both carried the other equally and independently of one another. Given the choice I take MSL any day over Marner. That's not to say Marner is bad. He's a good player. It's just that MSL currently holds the edge

MSL started his career at like 24 in the heart of the DPE. It's easy to overlook how dominant his career should have been and how dominant it actually was

I didnt say marner was as good. I said in the same vein ie the same type of player