2019 NHL Entry Draft Thread

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NotProkofievian

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Nov 29, 2011
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And you are more interested in labeling me than trying to read and understand what I said. What you say is 100% conjecture and interpretation. I always believed that Gretzky would dominate because he had an incredible edge over everybody else. I like Gaudreau, liked Martin-St-Louis tremendously: I'm not against small players. I'm small <---
When it comes to evaluating hockey talent and to rank it I have to go with the evidence of what I see.

I don't dislike Jack Hughes, I just don't have him evaluated at the same place you do. I don't see any comparison with Gretzky. Jack is not in the same tier of talent. Jack is smaller. Jack does not have a large edge over NHL players. Size is not everything, size is much less important than 10 or 20 years ago, but it still matters: it will always matter. Denying it is like denying physics.

I also think that the 2015-2020 period will remembered in 30 years as the transition years to a fast game (it used to be that size was the first factor, now it is speed). Because it is the beginning of the transition, smaller players who are fast have had a small window of opportunity they won't have in 5-10 years when the bigger guys will have accelerated themselves. We've seen the same thing happen in every sport.

Would you draft a 6'0'' goalie in 2018? It's clear that 6'3"+ goalies have won and it's never going back. Soon they will be 6'5''+ in average. Yet in the 80's and 90's the same arguments were made about speed with the small goalies. You know what, the big guys are as fast as the small guys now, and they are bigger.

Smaller players will always be more agile in general (capable of quicker changes of velocity both directionally and in terms of speed) than their larger counter parts, though, specifically because of physics. I doubt we'll ever see a 6'3 player with Jack's agility. In terms of straight line speed you can find some very large and fast players, but hockey isn't about straight lines.

I think a better argument against smaller players is that the rule change and enforcement that is allowing them to survive better in the league currently can be reversed as it was in the wake of the 2005 lockout. Larger players are ''robust'' to such changes provided they can still function in the faster league.
 

SOLR

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Smaller players will always be more agile in general (capable of quicker changes of velocity both directionally and in terms of speed) than their larger counter parts, though, specifically because of physics. I doubt we'll ever see a 6'3 player with Jack's agility. In terms of straight line speed you can find some very large and fast players, but hockey isn't about straight lines.

I think a better argument against smaller players is that the rule change and enforcement that is allowing them to survive better in the league currently can be reversed as it was in the wake of the 2005 lockout. Larger players are ''robust'' to such changes provided they can still function in the faster league.

There is hardly any scientific evidence that this is a truism for elite athletes. Agility is not a function of size, it's a function of IQ and strength ratios (capability to do the things you think about). McDavid is more agile than Hughes and he's 6'2''. (Before you say that's not true, consider the competition). To change sport, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Micheal Jordan --> Size + Agility packages come in all sizes and is linked to IQ more than physics, as it has to do with perception as much as strength.

Another example is Teemu Selanne, Jaromir Jagr <--- In others words, agility in hockey is a great skill to have and there is certainly many athlete with size and agility.

Why do people assume that when I say speed, I'm being dumb and I don't consider agility?

"I think a better argument against smaller players is that the rule change and enforcement that is allowing them to survive better in the league currently can be reversed"

I don't think that's a good argument at all. It won't be reversed, its how they sell the game in the US by making it faster and less fight-centric.

However, this is real:
The rules just changed.
Small players were ready.
Big players will adapt (we are here).
Small players will suffer.
Small players will be all but gone (NBA).

These steps are happening in all teams sports around the world, the NBA is the most advanced, because well...basketball is a speed game by default.
 
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Mrb1p

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Why are we even discussing Hughes size when our three top C prospects are all over 6'2? Kotkaniemi/Poehling/Olofsson can take the tougher matchups, just like Tavares did this year, or Bergeron did before.
 

crosbyshow

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About 3 or 4 years ago...at the end of the season i looked the first 30 players in terms of points:

14 of the those 30 players were less than 6.0.....


Think about that ....the greatest player in history of this sport was at 6.0 and 170 pounds ...une échalotte....Gilles Latulippe.

Put Wayne Gretzky today at 180 pounds against any defenseman at 230 pounds ...even today...and Gretzky would still be the best and he would laught of them. He played in the 90S far of his prime vs big monsters and they were not smart enough to follow him.


To say that a good big man is always better than small man....I would never agree with that in hockey.

It's all about IQ.

In boxing..it's not the power but the speed and IQ..... Look at Roy Jones Jr at his prime....

Patrick Kane was drafted at 160 pounds and he is one of the best player in the world because of his skills and his IQ.


We are not talking about goaltenders here because today they must be at more than 6.0....but I am never looking the size of a forward player...never..


When your short and small you have to be smarter obviously....look at Drew Brees..in the NFL...a QB at 6.0 only ...phenomenal.....the guy is smart. A QB must be at 6.3-6.4-6.5 but Brees is a phenom

Jack Hughes is the same in hockey...he is a phenom and he makes players around him better
 

sandviper

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Why are we even discussing Hughes size when our three top C prospects are all over 6'2? Kotkaniemi/Poehling/Olofsson can take the tougher matchups, just like Tavares did this year, or Bergeron did before.

Because anyone < 6' is a bust.

Anyhow, if we were to draft Hughes, you can always pair him with one of McCarron, Rychel, DLo or Pezetta as his personal muscle.
 
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WeThreeKings

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Sep 19, 2006
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If the big paws theory would be true, hed suck at skating too. You dont just get those legs and somehow forget to use your hands.

His hands are good. His skating is great for turns but there's a bamby-ness to his acceleration and power skating.
 
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SOLR

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Why are we even discussing Hughes size when our three top C prospects are all over 6'2? Kotkaniemi/Poehling/Olofsson can take the tougher matchups, just like Tavares did this year, or Bergeron did before.

This is the draft thread. I'm not always thinking about the Habs when I evaluate prospects...+ I never said I didn't want Jack if hes the best player when we'll draft.
 

NotProkofievian

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Nov 29, 2011
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There is hardly any scientific evidence that this is a truism for elite athletes. Agility is not a function of size, it's a function of IQ and strength ratios (capability to do the things you think about). McDavid is more agile than Hughes and he's 6'2''. (Before you say that's not true, consider the competition). To change sport, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Micheal Jordan --> Size + Agility packages come in all sizes and is linked to IQ more than physics, as it has to do with perception as much as strength.

Another example is Teemu Selanne, Jaromir Jagr <--- In others words, agility in hockey is a great skill to have and there is certainly many athlete with size and agility.

Why do people assume that when I say speed, I'm being dumb and I don't consider agility?

The ability to change direction/speed isn't a function of mass? I'm not sure why you would choose to invoke physics in your argument only to end up here.

I'm not even sure why you bring up McDavid. He is not an effective player in physical contact, at all. He is, however, the most effective player in hockey. He's a lanky beanpole with very little mass to accelerate (gee, there seems to be some sort of a proportionality relationship developing here) which influences how he plays the game. If anything he's built and perambulates like a cheetah: he floats around until it's go time, at which point nobody can touch him. Whereas you're at least suggesting that future players will be built more like super lions who can somehow keep up with cheetahs.

"I think a better argument against smaller players is that the rule change and enforcement that is allowing them to survive better in the league currently can be reversed"

I don't think that's a good argument at all. It won't be reversed, its how they sell the game in the US by making it faster and less fight-centric.

However, this is real:
The rules just changed.
Small players were ready.
Big players will adapt (we are here).
Small players will suffer.
Small players will be all but gone (NBA).

These steps are happening in all teams sports around the world, the NBA is the most advanced, because well...basketball is a speed game by default.

They were already reversed once. After the 2005 lockout everything was being called. Then less and less things were called as more and more borderline infractions became psychologically normalized, while refs wanted to avoid ''deciding games'' which caused a prolonged decline in scoring, even as the game got faster. This trend was reversed just this year.

I don't find the comparison to the NBA convincing at all. They're different games emphasizing completely different skills attributes entirely. For one, the average height in the NBA is 6'7, whereas there are hardly any effective hockey players at that height. Clearly this is all just a coincidence and has nothing to do with the fact that the scoring area is suspended 10 feet in the air. Moreover, this trend doesn't exist in all positions, in all sports. For example, NFL running backs have gotten shorter over time, while their weight has been relatively constant over the last 50 years. Now, the NFL is far more specialized than hockey or basketball, and perhaps second only to Baseball in terms of specialization. Athletes in the NFL are perhaps the most physically optimized for the demands of their position. Tell me, for which physical attribute do you think an RB is optimized?
 

Kobe Armstrong

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Jul 26, 2011
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Well I've certainly warmed up to the idea of sucking ass for the next 2 years. Great center depth in the draft this year, and the quad of Holtz, Byfield, Lafreniere, and Raymond in 2020 looks insane.
 

sandviper

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I'm not even sure why you bring up McDavid. He is not an effective player in physical contact, at all. He is, however, the most effective player in hockey. He's a lanky beanpole with very little mass to accelerate (gee, there seems to be some sort of a proportionality relationship developing here) which influences how he plays the game. If anything he's built and perambulates like a cheetah: he floats around until it's go time, at which point nobody can touch him. Whereas you're at least suggesting that future players will be built more like super lions who can somehow keep up with cheetahs.

That's a good analogy. Yeah, McD is tall, but he's not what I would call a "big" player. Out of last year's top-10 scoring leaders, Kopitar, Wheeler and maybe Malkin and Hall would be classified as big guys. they don't get much bigger as you move through the top-20.

Anyhow, if I was coaching McDavid, I wouldn't be telling him to flatten guys along the boards and rub out defencemen in the corners. Of course, all players will need to engage in board battles at some point during the game, but the great players are the ones who can figure out what to do with the puck for that half second they have possession of it.
 

sandviper

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Look, we can go back and forth on this, it doesn't really matter.

Go back and forth on what? Lafreniere is a winger. He did play a little center in minor hockey but he played wing last year, and I haven't heard anything about Rimouski using him up the middle in his D-1 or in his draft year.
 

G0bias

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I think Soderstrom is the more talented of the three but BROberg sure is making a case for himself. Kid can straight up fly. Burned Lafreniere last night for a great chance on the PK.
 
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SOLR

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The ability to change direction/speed isn't a function of mass[/B]? I'm not sure why you would choose to invoke physics in your argument only to end up here.

I'm not even sure why you bring up McDavid. He is not an effective player in physical contact, at all. He is, however, the most effective player in hockey. He's a lanky beanpole with very little mass to accelerate (gee, there seems to be some sort of a proportionality relationship developing here) which influences how he plays the game. If anything he's built and perambulates like a cheetah: he floats around until it's go time, at which point nobody can touch him. Whereas you're at least suggesting that future players will be built more like super lions who can somehow keep up with cheetahs.


Change of directions: this only relevant if the mass to strength/resistance ratio are different. Things like genetics makes this highly variable. Lebron came to the NBA with a 7 foot body that could be as agile as anyone of any size.
McDavid is very agile, why mix the physical contacts with this? McDavid is also not light by any measure (195lbs).
What gets people confused is that most athletes get too much weight on them while training always the same muscles groups and not their sub-groups, they modify their speed, while reducing their agility. For most its the right decision.

They were already reversed once. After the 2005 lockout everything was being called. Then less and less things were called as more and more borderline infractions became psychologically normalized, while refs wanted to avoid ''deciding games'' which caused a prolonged decline in scoring, even as the game got faster. This trend was reversed just this year.

I don't find the comparison to the NBA convincing at all. They're different games emphasizing completely different skills attributes entirely. For one, the average height in the NBA is 6'7, whereas there are hardly any effective hockey players at that height. Clearly this is all just a coincidence and has nothing to do with the fact that the scoring area is suspended 10 feet in the air. Moreover, this trend doesn't exist in all positions, in all sports. For example, NFL running backs have gotten shorter over time, while their weight has been relatively constant over the last 50 years. Now, the NFL is far more specialized than hockey or basketball, and perhaps second only to Baseball in terms of specialization. Athletes in the NFL are perhaps the most physically optimized for the demands of their position. Tell me, for which physical attribute do you think an RB is optimized?

My father was a RB, it's a mix of speed, agility, low-center of gravity (hard to tackle), horizontal size and resistance to contacts (flexibility) . Most teams have different RBs with a different mix of these attributes for different plays (unless they have an elite guy who have all of these so high that it doesn't matter). My father was all agility, so he was the guy returning the kicks and on first downs. They had someone faster and harder to tackle for short gains(3yds-5yds) situation. And then the TE is used for 1 yard situations, because they are very hard to tackle. As you can see on this link: Running backs getting shorter and heavier specialization towards smaller exist, because there are clear tactical advantage to that specialization to meet the goal of said player. All NFL players who are not RB are growing in size, while RBs are optimizing for all 5 attributes. There is no equivalence to that phenomenon at hockey, scorers could be 7 foot, but basketball/volleyball tend to aggressively recruit tall people, so your sample size of tall players who try to play hockey is extremely small. You do have Zdeno Chara, Zadorov, Hall Gill etc. youth coach are optimizing the advantage of the height their get by developing goaltenders and Ds, that isn't a sign that you couldn't develop tall forwards that have all advantages just that there is a limited supply of size. We should not conclude that a hockey version of Lebron can't exist because of that (Ovechkin-Malkin-Jagr-Lemieux-Lecavalier-Laine - Lindros are good indications). If there was more taller-bigger players like this group, they would all play ahead of small players. (Obviously) They would always play ahead of a Martin St-Louis....Think about our Canadian Junior team in 2005...

I've recently come across a lot of data that shows these trends I've described.
Examples:
How has height changed over time in the NBA? | tothemean
NHL Player Size From 1917-18 to 2014-15: A Brief Look

Here you can see that height has been growing steady as a requirement in all leagues (NHL stopped growing heights as fast for now because of the emphasis for speed)
In hockey, when the game got faster, what changed is that the taller guys (see that the overall sizes didn't go down) started to build their bodies for more speed by cutting their weight gain (see the weight go down). Its evident to me that when the taller guys will be done with that process, their speed will go up, leaving less space for the smaller bodies to have a speed-agility advantage and slow incremental height gains will then resume as everybody will be on a more level playing field for speed (goalies trends are the smoking gun) so height will become a differentiating advantage again. The reason that height is important at hockey, is simple math, the play surface is limited, therefore occupying more space on the ice, leads to a better D coverage. It probably helps with puck possession metrics as well. Height correlates with horizontal space coverage here, because of course vertical space coverage is less important at hockey than at Basketball.

There are overall risk that hockey is not growing their supply pool anymore (at least in Canada we are losing our supply pool), and that will have an effect on sizes, as talent will then become the only limiting factor.

What people don't get when they look at McCarron say, is that McCarron would never have even have a contract if he was 5'10'', his only attribute is size (glass half full), it's not the freaking glass half empty scenario. Small, slow, untalented is not something that has much of a chance. While tall, slow, untalented exist and can be useful. Small players absolutely need speed and/or talent as a minimum requirement, that's the proof that size matters.
 
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SOLR

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Go back and forth on what? Lafreniere is a winger. He did play a little center in minor hockey but he played wing last year, and I haven't heard anything about Rimouski using him up the middle in his D-1 or in his draft year.

His metrics trend with a center. NHL teams might transform him. Drouin was only transformed in his last junior year (after playing wing in his draft year), and now he's transforming some more in the NHL.
 

SOLR

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I don't see how one inch changes everything honestly. At this point it's just a mental threshold.

Much like a 13nm transistor is not better than a 15 nm transistor right? There's just 2nm of difference, so its a "mental threshold". (and oh, 25% less energy is required, oups!)

1 inch difference for a hockey player, would put him in the mean of players, and it might have "mean" reach, thus facing 15% less players with bigger reach than himself.

I mean, you have to make these nonsensical arguments up.

Go back to study stats, and learn more about how small differences in the absolute creates large differences in your placement within a distribution (post graduate student wtf ?!)
 

QuebecPride

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Much like a 13nm transistor is not better than a 15 nm transistor right? There's just 2nm of difference, so its a "mental threshold". (and oh, 25% less energy is required, oups!)

1 inch difference for a hockey player, would put him in the mean of players, and it might have "mean" reach, thus facing 15% less players with bigger reach than himself.

I mean, you have to make these nonsensical arguments up.

Go back to study stats, and learn more about how small differences in the absolute creates large differences in your placement within a distribution (post graduate student wtf ?!)

I don't disagree that there is a difference between 5'10 and 5'11, my point is that it's not as big as you nor most people for that matter make it out to be. Yes, I am indeed an MSc Finance student and I have studied behavioral finance amongst other things. A very fascinating discipline that studies biases, notably. To me people overvalue the importance of size and underestimate smaller players. That is different from saying I don't value size, but that I perhaps think it should not be valued as much in general. I'll admit I'm not as knowledgeable when it comes to physics, but I am still waiting to read your arguments about how being 5'10 or 5'11 will determine a player's fate that dramatically.
 
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Andrei79

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Much like a 13nm transistor is not better than a 15 nm transistor right? There's just 2nm of difference, so its a "mental threshold". (and oh, 25% less energy is required, oups!)

1 inch difference for a hockey player, would put him in the mean of players, and it might have "mean" reach, thus facing 15% less players with bigger reach than himself.

I mean, you have to make these nonsensical arguments up.

Go back to study stats, and learn more about how small differences in the absolute creates large differences in your placement within a distribution (post graduate student wtf ?!)

Sure, but we're waiting for you to apply this to Hughes in a way that's not a broad generalization. Why ? Because we have enough case reports to call BS on what you're trying to argue as a rule.

You even brought up the best case report imagineable: a Russian player who was drafted as an overager, who was even smaller both in height and weight than Hughes.

Now, here's a question: your premise applies to which population sample within 5'10" players and do you have legitimate data, outside of transistors and broad rules, to show us that within that specific population Hughes is part of i.e. high skill potential top 2 OA pick (heck, go broader: 5'10" impact players ), there's significance with a comparable 5'11" population ?

Do you ? Because that's what you're arguing, what apparently isn't a nonsensical argument. You're implying stastical significance based on literally no data.
 
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