Line Combos: 2019/2020 Roster Discussion

[Whileee]

Honestly you are wrong. Only the really stubborn old school coaches do that way. And even if it was every coach, so what? That would make them all bad coaches then. Honestly coaching isn’t the strongest thing about North American hockey anyway. Great motivators and people who understand how the human mind works are too rarely as coaches in the NHL even nowadays. Too many of those old school authoritary coaches who have a veteran favoring system and don’t have a clue of how to handle young talented people. Maurice is one of the weakest coaches in the NHL with these ”traits”.

You noticed how the "old school" coach has kept a small 18-year old Finnish defenseman and a 19-year old Swedish center on the roster, right?

 

[Whileee]

Sorry its behind a pay wall but I generalized it enough for everyone to get the picture.
Ranking the impact of every NHL coach on the team's success

This reflects only 2018/19 results. If the analysis was based on 2017/18, or even 2014/15 through 2017/18, the results would probably look much different for Maurice because of the surprisingly poor performance of his best players last season. Also, note that his "performance" last year using this methodology was rated as marginally better than Bruce Cassidy, but much inferior to Housley, Mclellan and others, so there's a bit of an issue with "face validity". I'm highly skeptical of individual performance metrics that vary wildly from one season to the next.

It was only a few seasons ago that an analysis by Yost in 2016 ranked Maurice as one of the best coaches in terms of deploying line-ups based on shot metrics: https://www.tsn.ca/an-attempt-to-measure-true-coaching-impact-1.466414

There's also the larger question about whether we have much evidence about the overall impact of coaching in the NHL, or whether we have good methodologies for measuring it accurately and reliably.

 

[Whileee]

Yes the D looks ugly but what options do we have that are better?

Borque on the 3rd line is the biggest grinder for me. The guy wasn't considered good enough by the Avs to be a lock on their 4th line on a non-playoff team but suddenly we are THAT team that is one injury away from him playing on the 3rd line? Even with the depth we have lost over the last couple of seasons I have to think our depth is better than that. I hope these lines are shuffled and Appleton or Roslovic get that spot.

My biggest gripes are:

Bourque on 3rd line over Roslovic. I could live with him on the 4th line based on pre-season performance.
Letestu in the line-up (over Gustafsson or even Suess).
Bitetto...

 

[KingBogo]

My biggest gripes are:

Bourque on 3rd line over Roslovic. I could live with him on the 4th line based on pre-season performance.
Letestu in the line-up (over Gustafsson or even Suess).
Bitetto...

I'd mostly agree with this. I thought Rosie had a pretty poor camp overall, but his body of work would suggest the 3rd line. Bourque deserves to be in the lineup based on his camp, but 4th line would be best. Suess is the player that really deserved the opportunity based on play. And hopefully Dahlstrom is in over Bitetto as early as tomorrow.

 

[Ippenator]

You noticed how the "old school" coach has kept a small 18-year old Finnish defenseman and a 19-year old Swedish center on the roster, right?

He doesn't have much options, as Jets roster is not really too good with defencemen and centers. And those young guys are simply that good compared to the other options that only a complete idiot would not give them the chance. I havent really said that Maurice is a complete idiot, although sometimes he seems even like that. But he is as old school as a coach as they come. He does these kind of line changes practically only when he doesn't have any other options. And that makes him also an even below average coach. He will do well only with a very good and balanced roster. But hey, almost any average coach can do that whe they get a real top roster.

 

[folix]

This reflects only 2018/19 results. If the analysis was based on 2017/18, or even 2014/15 through 2017/18, the results would probably look much different for Maurice because of the surprisingly poor performance of his best players last season. Also, note that his "performance" last year using this methodology was rated as marginally better than Bruce Cassidy, but much inferior to Housley, Mclellan and others, so there's a bit of an issue with "face validity". I'm highly skeptical of individual performance metrics that vary wildly from one season to the next.

It was only a few seasons ago that an analysis by Yost in 2016 ranked Maurice as one of the best coaches in terms of deploying line-ups based on shot metrics: https://www.tsn.ca/an-attempt-to-measure-true-coaching-impact-1.466414

View attachment 259987

There's also the larger question about whether we have much evidence about the overall impact of coaching in the NHL, or whether we have good methodologies for measuring it accurately and reliably.

The sample size is small however if you really want to go that route I dont think Pomo would produce a very flattering result from his canes years and beyond that. He is a .500 coach who has the most loses in NHL history.

So yeah sample size would not be in his favor.

 

[Halberdier]

You noticed how the "old school" coach has kept a small 18-year old Finnish defenseman and a 19-year old Swedish center on the roster, right?

It's on Chevy that the Jets have the youngest roster and is missing 5 of the D they had last season. Also Little is injured.

There were simply no other options for Heinola, who btw. made an excellent pair with Pionk, 95% of their time against Rangers.

Given those players Mo has available, he could not ice much older team that he is icing. I don't have much problem with that, but it's more than a bit dishonest to credit Mo about how young our roster is.

 

[Neuf]

Whenever I think about earned opportunity, I think about the game 2 seasons ago where Ehlers got demoted to the 4th line.

First shift, he hops over the boards, gets the puck, hammers a slapper in the net, looking pissed the entire time. He was back in the top 6 immediately.

 

[voyageur]

My biggest gripes are:

Bourque on 3rd line over Roslovic. I could live with him on the 4th line based on pre-season performance.
Letestu in the line-up (over Gustafsson or even Suess).
Bitetto...

It was odd to see Kevin Sawyer raving about Bitetto last night, especially his effect on the locker room. Verbal leader, he was described as. With some of the veterans gone from the backend, and younger faces, I somewhat understand. Realistically the Jets can bring in Niku to replace him at anytime, once he is healthy. I didn't really like any of the d pairings, Heinola and Pionk were probably the best. Kulikov doesn't look in sync with Morrissey. I think you would be safer running Morrissey-Pionk (which I still say is the Jets equivalent to Josi-Ellis), Heinola-Kulikov (who looked good in preseason), and then Niku-Poolman. There is some versatility to make adjustments, to move Niku up with Morrissey, as well.

I don't think Bourque was as bad as Perreault was on the checking line. Matty was on the wrong side of the puck a lot. But you certainly could have switched the Roslovic and Appleton minutes in to defensive zone ones, over Perreault and Bourque. I still have a hard time seeing Letestu staying in the lineup once Little comes back, as I see him as the greatest inhibiter of a 4 line team, that can maintain a constant pace. I can certainly understand why he is in, with Little out, as you want to start with the puck, and Little and he are the best at that. But I can also see Maurice running 3 lines and a 4th line that kills penalties, with limited minutes. Whether Letestu or Bourque would come out of the lineup when Little returns is hard to say.

Gustafsson is not going to get a lot of games. He is getting the experience, bonding with the team, and might come back at the end of the year. If we decide to carry 8 dmen, and that seems likely, seeing how the coaching staff likes Niku, Gustafsson is going to be the one who gets cut. I am looking forward to seeing Suess play in the NHL, his number should get called this year. Certainly there is pressure to perform given some of the players chomping to get a shot in the big league, at least at forward. Stanley or Nogier are probably our #9 defenseman.

 

[boydkc]

It was odd to see Kevin Sawyer raving about Bitetto last night, especially his effect on the locker room. Verbal leader, he was described as. With some of the veterans gone from the backend, and younger faces, I somewhat understand. Realistically the Jets can bring in Niku to replace him at anytime, once he is healthy. I didn't really like any of the d pairings, Heinola and Pionk were probably the best. Kulikov doesn't look in sync with Morrissey. I think you would be safer running Morrissey-Pionk (which I still say is the Jets equivalent to Josi-Ellis), Heinola-Kulikov (who looked good in preseason), and then Niku-Poolman. There is some versatility to make adjustments, to move Niku up with Morrissey, as well.

I don't think Bourque was as bad as Perreault was on the checking line. Matty was on the wrong side of the puck a lot. But you certainly could have switched the Roslovic and Appleton minutes in to defensive zone ones, over Perreault and Bourque. I still have a hard time seeing Letestu staying in the lineup once Little comes back, as I see him as the greatest inhibiter of a 4 line team, that can maintain a constant pace. I can certainly understand why he is in, with Little out, as you want to start with the puck, and Little and he are the best at that. But I can also see Maurice running 3 lines and a 4th line that kills penalties, with limited minutes. Whether Letestu or Bourque would come out of the lineup when Little returns is hard to say.

Gustafsson is not going to get a lot of games. He is getting the experience, bonding with the team, and might come back at the end of the year. If we decide to carry 8 dmen, and that seems likely, seeing how the coaching staff likes Niku, Gustafsson is going to be the one who gets cut. I am looking forward to seeing Suess play in the NHL, his number should get called this year. Certainly there is pressure to perform given some of the players chomping to get a shot in the big league, at least at forward. Stanley or Nogier are probably our #9 defenseman.

I think Gustafson could be the trade deadline centre they have purchased the last two seasons. Apparently this years draft is loaded.

 

[kelsier]

Shouldn't the Copp experiment be over by now? He's clearly not a second line center at this level. Why not at least give it a try with Roslovic. A top six line needs to produce and it's clearly not happening with a grinder center. If it doesn't work out with Rosy, then promote Copp back or explore other avenues (even as far as slotting Wheelers there). Defence is the main concern at the moment but that doesn't mean the focus should be 100% there.

Also Pionk in the first powerplay unit? C'mon please. Even 18 year old Heinola would be a lot smarter option (someone who actually has the IQ and the vision).

 

[ffh]

Shouldn't the Copp experiment be over by now? He's clearly not a second line center at this level. Why not at least give it a try with Roslovic. A top six line needs to produce and it's clearly not happening with a grinder center. If it doesn't work out with Rosy, then promote Copp back or explore other avenues (even as far as slotting Wheelers there). Defence is the main concern at the moment but that doesn't mean the focus should be 100% there.

Also Pionk in the first powerplay unit? C'mon please. Even 18 year old Heinola would be a lot smarter option (someone who actually has the IQ and the vision).

Copp isnt a 2nd line centre never was you are right. But he is light years a better player the roslovic. I have no idea what roslovic is though. Doesn't play like a top 6 player or a bottom 6 player. He appears to just go out for a skate every shift. He's a bottom6 player that's fast that's not even trusted to kill penalties. Little will be back soon so the 2nd line centre spot will be filled soon.

 

[AKAChip]

Lines in practice today are the same as the game yesterday. Hard to fathom why we even bother.

 

[Jack722]

Lines in practice today are the same as the game yesterday. Hard to fathom why we even bother.

Laine back with Copp?

 

[AKAChip]

Laine back with Copp?

I should have said the lines the game ended with. Laine with Scheifele and Wheeler.

 

[Nordiques1979]

Quick question, how was Logan Stanley and Sami Niku camp? Does this guys couldn't be any better than Bitteto or Dahlstrom?

 

[Jack722]

I should have said the lines the game ended with. Laine with Scheifele and Wheeler.

Hmm. That's a bit crazy. Demoting our best forward already, lol.

 

[Vekke]

Once Little returns I hope they try Wheeler with him. I feel bad for Nik.. 3 competent guys and one spot..

 

[Deebs]

I should have said the lines the game ended with. Laine with Scheifele and Wheeler.

That's garbage. Ehlers should be up there

 

[KingBogo]

Quick question, how was Logan Stanley and Sami Niku camp? Does this guys couldn't be any better than Bitteto or Dahlstrom?

Niku missed most of camp with an injury and was just starting to skate as the season started was sent down and started the season with the Moose for a bit of a conditioning stint. He was just recalled and most likely will be in the lineup tomorrow against the Pens. Stanley is probably still a year or 2 away, as he still needs to take another step or 2 in his development.

 

[KingBogo]

Lines in practice today are the same as the game yesterday. Hard to fathom why we even bother.

Maybe you should take your argument that Laine doesn't belong on the 1st line to the Laine thread, as that will keep you busy for awhile

 

[KingBogo]

Hmm. That's a bit crazy. Demoting our best forward already, lol.

Not sure why we should see it as a demotion? We have 4 1st line caliber wingers and we should be moving them around to achieve production goals. Laine has had a strong start to the season, but neither Copp or Connor are going to give him near the looks as Scheifele and Wheeler will, and this quickly resulted in his 1st goal of the season. Ehlers can in turn open up space for Connor and help him get a few more looks. I always find it interesting that people demand Maurice shake up the lines and balance out the offense, but when he does people get mad that he broke up the lines.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Not sure why we should see it as a demotion? We have 4 1st line caliber wingers and we should be moving them around to achieve production goals. Laine has had a strong start to the season, but neither Copp or Connor are going to give him near the looks as Scheifele and Wheeler will, and this quickly resulted in his 1st goal of the season. Ehlers can in turn open up space for Connor and help him get a few more looks. I always find it interesting that people demand Maurice shake up the lines and balance out the offense, but when he does people get mad that he broke up the lines.

No people just want it balanced the way they want it. Anything but breaking up Wheeler and Schief is not a change.

 

[Psych0dad]

but it's more than a bit dishonest to credit Mo about how young our roster is.

Exactly, it's as dishonest as the "it's snowing outside hence no global warming" argument.

PoMo has been forced by necessity, which seems the only way anything changes in Jets. I bet Laine would be sucking in ELL if Little wasn't injured. Heinola would be back in Finland if there were Stuarts in the AHL for him to bring up.

 

[Psych0dad]

No people just want it balanced the way they want it. Anything but breaking up Wheeler and Schief is not a change.

Exactly. Why they can't be separated is a mystery. It's not results.

Get Wheeler in the 2nd and balance the lines. Put Perreault in the 1st and you have depth in 3 lines.