Prospect Info: 2019-2020 Prospect Info and Discussion

[bleedgreen]

I'm just going to wait and see what happens. Luckily, if he can't make it because of this, I don't think it would be as devastating as it would have been for the longest time. We're still pretty well stocked. You never want to lose out on a 1st rounder, but we could and not be toast.

But he performed pretty well down the stretch after coming back last year (production-wise, I certainly didn't watch him). And that was pretty early into his new normal. I won't be surprised if he adapts and overcomes.

I dont know if we're THAT well stocked. We have depth these days but Jarvis and Suzuki were the only ones not already on the team I was thinking have a good chance at the top six. Outside possibility of Gunler and maybe we get lucky with someone like Puistola but those arent nearly as likely as the top two.

 

[spockBokk]

I’ll hold out hopes for a Svechnikov-Suzuki-Jarvis line down the road, but the news that he’s permanently lost some vision is a big downer. He was/is the best bet to make it as a top 6 C the Canes currently have, but you never know, Drury or Rees could surprise or Ponomarev could turn out. Drury looks to be on the path to end up as a decent bottom 6 option and they don’t really know what they have in Cotton yet.

I wonder if this puts more onus on them to make sure Necas moves to over to C eventually. It seems they’re set on the wings with it likely ( in my view) that at least 2 of Jarvis, Bokk, Gunler, Puistola, Nybeck, Pashin turning into top 9 scoring wings.

At any rate, I’ll be rooting for Suzuki even more now.

 

[bleedgreen]

I think if Necas was a center he'd be there really soon. I actually think if he was a center he'd already be there now, but i'm willing to suspend belief a little longer with Tro around. Can't think of many guys who were sheltered this long from center and still ended being a center. Or any that were good at being a center once they got there. Mostly, you can do it or you can't. You shelter a 18-20 year old maybe for their first year, especially if there's a vet in place. He got part of one AHL season at center, got quickly identified as being meh at it - and hasnt really done it since. The biggest concerns were the defensive side and his current coach is pretty big on all that. The fact Tro was acquired at all with some term left suggested they didnt think of Necas as one or dont think he's ready. He'll be how old by the time Tro is gone? He won't have played it since early in his AHL career. Why would we think he'd be good at it three years later when he hasnt done it since?

 

[spockBokk]

I think if Necas was a center he'd be there really soon. I actually think if he was a center he'd already be there now, but i'm willing to suspend belief a little longer with Tro around. Can't think of many guys who were sheltered this long from center and still ended being a center. Or any that were good at being a center once they got there. Mostly, you can do it or you can't. You shelter a 18-20 year old maybe for their first year, especially if there's a vet in place. He got part of one AHL season at center, got quickly identified as being meh at it - and hasnt really done it since. The biggest concerns were the defensive side and his current coach is pretty big on all that. The fact Tro was acquired at all with some term left suggested they didnt think of Necas as one or dont think he's ready. He'll be how old by the time Tro is gone? He won't have played it since early in his AHL career. Why would we think he'd be good at it three years later when he hasnt done it since?

I see your point, for sure.

However, it seems like they’re taking the Seguin route with Necas. From reports of RBA working with him on face offs to multiple mentions from Sara Civ that one of the reasons they got Trocheck was to buy Necas more time before they moved him over. I personally think the plan is to eventually move him over. I could be completely wrong though.

I’ll post my ideal lineup in 2-3yrs, assuming perfect development out of prospects:

Aho-Necas-Teravainen
Svechnikov-Suzuki-Jarvis

 

[bleedgreen]

I see your point, for sure.

However, it seems like they’re taking the Seguin route with Necas. From reports of RBA working with him on face offs to multiple mentions from Sara Civ that one of the reasons they got Trocheck was to buy Necas more time before they moved him over. I personally think the plan is to eventually move him over. I could be completely wrong though.

I’ll post my ideal lineup in 2-3yrs, assuming perfect development out of prospects:

Aho-Necas-Teravainen
Svechnikov-Suzuki-Jarvis

I didn’t think it took Seguin that long to get to center but if so fair enough. I was thinking of him when I wrote that post, but thought he was already playing there when he got to 21/22. Couldn’t think of many more, and more directly think of Lindy who’s a much more defensive minded player than Necas and it still hasn’t happened. I’m not saying it can’t happen, just that I’m not expecting it and never saw anything in his game that suggested it was his jam in the nhl in the first place. Of course he can evolve.

I always felt the team talks of him moving over is because they want/need him to be one, it’s the plan. Hopefully when it happens it’ll be because he’s good at it and not because they just really want him to be good at it.

 

[Vagrant]

i think if they were serious about necas at center they would have put him on the 2nd line there this past season and let jordan take defensive matchups. he's just so much better on the periphery where his skating plays. he's not super straight line and i know that's what rba wants from his centermen. the faceoff thing is interesting because i feel like with as much as brind'amour encourages aggression and timing on faceoffs, we get a lot of guys booted and it's always good to have a righty out there who can flip the dots for you. i think you're going to see it more and more that wingers are going to try to get a comfort level there as much as they're having to do it.

 

[Bridgeburner96]

I don't know if this was already reported, but according to this article our deal with the Wolves is for 3 years.

Wolves Insider: Prepping for 2020-21 - Chicago Wolves

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

i hate to be the continual voice of dissent on matters like these, but there's not a coach out there that is going to say "yeah suzuki looked terrible that eye thing is really going to suck for him." the vision thing is a big big deal. it would have been game over ten years ago when the game was so much more physical. that information alone drops him out of my top 5 list for carolina. even prior to the injury he was a guy that wasn't producing as much counting stats as his talent would suggest he could and this is going to make it tougher. he might have to rebrand as a spark plug physical presence to have a meaningful chance of making it.

I’m not an ophthalmologist, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.

 

[Vagrant]

I’m not an ophthalmologist, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.

there's just some shit that ain't good man. you only need find a drunk guy to figure out that trying to do things with one eye open isn't optimal

 

[CandyCanes]

Don’t forget Necas was a rookie in the NHL last season. I still think the organization has hopes for him to be NHL center. We’re still probably another full season or two of him in the NHL, before that experiment is even tried.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

there's just some shit that ain't good man. you only need find a drunk guy to figure out that trying to do things with one eye open isn't optimal

In fairness, I didn’t have access to the Wheeler article. Do we know how much of a blind spot it is? How much vision has he lost? How debilitating is it?

Not downplaying the repercussions of this, but seems some have jumped to absolute worst case.

 

[poobags]

In fairness, I didn’t have access to the Wheeler article. Do we know how much of a blind spot it is? How much vision has he lost? How debilitating is it?

Not downplaying the repercussions of this, but seems some have jumped to absolute worst case.

This. I'm not an ophthalmologist but I am an optometrist. A blind spot in the center of his vision is quite vague. Loss of central vision in one eye isn't a deal breaker necessarily.

I wrote out a few theories and kept deleting them because we just don't have enough info.

I've never played hockey but I'll put forward a different theory: total visual field has to be at least as important, if not more important, than central acuity. Suzuki may not be able to read the words on the puck but he will likely never lose sight of it. Game awareness should be less effected than if he lost a chunk of his peripheral vision. For the former/current hockey players out there, how often are you watching the puck when your moving up and down the ice?

One thing I'll add is that a concussion or TBI would complicate the vision issues separate from the loss of central visual acuity. For examples see Matt Cullen and Brian Allen and their work with local Raleigh optometrist Dr. Susan Durham who specializes in neuro-optometry rehab among other things.

EDIT: read the Wheeler article, here's the only relevant quote I found:

He got back into the Colts lineup for a pair of games just before the Christmas break.
In his return, he learned that he was going to have to teach himself to approach the game differently, given that his blind spot was almost dead centre.
“I have good peripheral vision still and that’s almost what I need anyways to make plays,” he said. “I’m always a player that’s aware of everything that’s going on around me so I think having the injury, I had to have my head up more and it almost made me a little bit more assertive because I always wanted to know what was going on. And playing with a full cage, you can be a little more gritty in the corners and not having to worry about sticks coming up into your chin and face. I’m just more aware of what’s around me. I’m forced to pay attention more.”

EDIT2: the only other relevant medical info

For a while, he also had to sleep sitting up so that the blood could drain out of his eye. Otherwise, the doctors feared that it could clot and cause even more long-term damage. It took a few days for him to get even blurry vision back, as his eye remained swollen shut.

Doctors told him he’d torn his retina and that he was going to have long-lasting eyelid damage which may render it lax (a medical term for loose and malfunctioning).

Torn retina makes sense with the missing vision but no mention of retinal detachment which is a good sign and would've complicated his recovery and return. Blood in the eye common from traumatic event and temporary loss of vision common as well (see commotio retinae).

 

[CandyCanes]

Just saying hockey players are freaking crazy and tough as shit. Thinking about an eye injury like that just makes me have the heebie jeebies, like ouch.

 

[geehaad]

Can't think of many guys who were sheltered this long from center and still ended being a center.

Sebastian Aho comes to mind. I realize you don't think he's an NHL center, but he did get an offer sheet for $8.5M after slotting as the #1 center for one full year and being the best forward on a team that lost in the EC Final.

It seems widely accepted that forward positions don't matter much in RBA's system but we continue to debate whether a player is a center or not.

Step off my son Martin Necas!!

 

[bleedgreen]

Sebastian Aho comes to mind. I realize you don't think he's an NHL center, but he did get an offer sheet for $8.5M after slotting as the #1 center for one full year and being the best forward on a team that lost in the EC Final.

It seems widely accepted that forward positions don't matter much in RBA's system but we continue to debate whether a player is a center or not.

Step off my son Martin Necas!!

Lol I love Necas! I hope he figures it out and becomes that guy. To me he’s a big part of who we are regardless of position so I never really care personally. I have no emotion attached to him playing center or wing, I’m fine if he stays at wing and I’d rather have someone at center that flat out is obviously a center than someone you wonder about because we forced him there.

Which brings us to Aho. I said I could see someone being sheltered at wing until they were ready and usually it’s only 18-20 year olds in my mind. Mind you I wasn’t trying to be THAT specific to age, but regardless he started playing center at 21 which fits what I was saying. Also, while maybe Francis and Peters maybe saw Aho as a center down the road I don’t think they played him there to shelter him? It was a pretty natural position for him, I’m under the impression he played mostly wing in the years before he came to us? He’s famous for the wjc but I thought they just put him there for the tournament. I never thought of him as a drafted center who just needed a little time.

Then there’s Rod with Aho. First of all I think Rod wasn’t see him as one and was willing to try it because Aho wanted it. He seemed skeptical and uncomfortable with it until Aho scored so much he had no choice. Even after the first year it was said he wasn’t sold. It wouldn’t shock me if we acquired “extra” true centers who were two way types that he tried to move him back.

Second of all we as a group have been developing this interesting “Rod doesn’t care about positions the way everyone else does” theory. I think that’s generally horse pucky. It goes along with the theory that he’s some new age coach who transcends space and time. Rod is as old school as they come. Dump and chase. Grind those corners. Get the pucks to the point and work for rebounds. Defense defense defense. Veterans. He wants experienced defense first people at all cost even if they’re slow or not as skilled as you like. He wanted three JStaal’s at center which is why he was skeptical of Aho. I absolutely think he prefers righties and lefties where they belong, just being old school he refuses to complain about it and makes do. We don’t have lefties playing RD because Rod doesn’t care, that’s what we’ve got so that’s what we do. He doesn’t use it as an excuse for negative results and doesn’t let the players either.

The very existence of Staal is the number one argument against this idea that we have this amazing innovative system where it doesn’t matter who lines up at center or either wing. Of course it matters who lines up at center. Old school wants draws to be won, and for the center to come down low in the defensive zone first at all times and preferably have a little size. That’s Staal. Geekie won his extra playing time in his first game by doing the same thing Staal does in the first period. He went backwards instead of forward the first few times we got the puck in our end. He was on the pp like ten minutes later. Trocheck isn’t perfect but he definitely does his job first. Aho is actually probably the worst defensive center currently, probably part of Rod being skeptical initially. Wings don’t play center defensively for us. Yes they cover for the center when he’s up too far, just like in all systems but we don’t do anything different in the D zone other than push the concept of getting out it out quickly every time - whether you can make a clean pass or not.

 

[bleedgreen]

So part of what I’m saying about Necas is the same argument I have against Bean. Don’t matter if he’s really good if his coach will never trust him. Necas probably has a better chance than Bean.

Lord that was a long post for me. Apologies.

 

[MinJaBen]

Lol I love Necas! I hope he figures it out and becomes that guy. To me he’s a big part of who we are regardless of position so I never really care personally. I have no emotion attached to him playing center or wing, I’m fine if he stays at wing and I’d rather have someone at center that flat out is obviously a center than someone you wonder about because we forced him there.

Which brings us to Aho. I said I could see someone being sheltered at wing until they were ready and usually it’s only 18-20 year olds in my mind. Mind you I wasn’t trying to be THAT specific to age, but regardless he started playing center at 21 which fits what I was saying. Also, while maybe Francis and Peters maybe saw Aho as a center down the road I don’t think they played him there to shelter him? It was a pretty natural position for him, I’m under the impression he played mostly wing in the years before he came to us? He’s famous for the wjc but I thought they just put him there for the tournament. I never thought of him as a drafted center who just needed a little time.

Then there’s Rod with Aho. First of all I think Rod wasn’t see him as one and was willing to try it because Aho wanted it. He seemed skeptical and uncomfortable with it until Aho scored so much he had no choice. Even after the first year it was said he wasn’t sold. It wouldn’t shock me if we acquired “extra” true centers who were two way types that he tried to move him back.

Second of all we as a group have been developing this interesting “Rod doesn’t care about positions the way everyone else does” theory. I think that’s generally horse pucky. It goes along with the theory that he’s some new age coach who transcends space and time. Rod is as old school as they come. Dump and chase. Grind those corners. Get the pucks to the point and work for rebounds. Defense defense defense. Veterans. He wants experienced defense first people at all cost even if they’re slow or not as skilled as you like. He wanted three JStaal’s at center which is why he was skeptical of Aho. I absolutely think he prefers righties and lefties where they belong, just being old school he refuses to complain about it and makes do. We don’t have lefties playing RD because Rod doesn’t care, that’s what we’ve got so that’s what we do. He doesn’t use it as an excuse for negative results and doesn’t let the players either.

The very existence of Staal is the number one argument against this idea that we have this amazing innovative system where it doesn’t matter who lines up at center or either wing. Of course it matters who lines up at center. Old school wants draws to be won, and for the center to come down low in the defensive zone first at all times and preferably have a little size. That’s Staal. Geekie won his extra playing time in his first game by doing the same thing Staal does in the first period. He went backwards instead of forward the first few times we got the puck in our end. He was on the pp like ten minutes later. Trocheck isn’t perfect but he definitely does his job first. Aho is actually probably the worst defensive center currently, probably part of Rod being skeptical initially. Wings don’t play center defensively for us. Yes they cover for the center when he’s up too far, just like in all systems but we don’t do anything different in the D zone other than push the concept of getting out it out quickly every time - whether you can make a clean pass or not.

TL;DR: Rod is Mo with playing experience and a cup.

 

[geehaad]

“Rod doesn’t care about positions the way everyone else does” theory. I think that’s generally horse pucky.

Ah, apologies. I would've sworn that you were one of the main proponents of that assessment. Truth be told, I'm not sure I'm smart enough to make such a determination on my own.

 

[DaveG]

FWIW I think Kev was the one that was of that opinion.

 

[bleedgreen]

Ah, apologies. I would've sworn that you were one of the main proponents of that assessment. Truth be told, I'm not sure I'm smart enough to make such a determination on my own.

No worries. I think that was a Vagrant concept.

I don’t see guys positionally doing anything different with us than any other team. I think with the more creative forwards like our top three, none of them hesitate to switch lanes while attacking. Svech being the number one example, which is why I often say it’s not a big deal if he lines up on the left. People often say he should be right because they think he’s better attacking on the off wing. I think he’s equally effective on both sides and attacks from both anyways. His junior move of driving wide on the back hand from the right side doesn’t work nearly as well as a pro and he gets his shot off more from the left.

Rod obviously is fine with that. That’s something different than saying positions don’t really matter though. That just means with the skill guys he doesn’t mind if they switch lanes while attacking. That’s not really a stretch for most coaches.

 

[geehaad]

His junior move of driving wide on the back hand from the right side

"The Cole Saw"

 

[bleedgreen]

"The Cole Saw"

Lol exactly!

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

@Vagrant , did you take @bleedgreen ’s long winded post as a personal challenge? Holy wall of words.

 

[CandyCanes]

not quite, but i can see how you would think that. my whole drum has been positionless hockey as it pertains to a full five man attack and being somewhat fluid with assignment changes as the defense activates more but that's still something i think is more of a difference in philosophy than role designation. the system requires the forwards to be more adaptive to compensating for the defense playing with heightened aggression, but their jobs devoid of that wrinkle are largely traditional. we are trying to make offense an all hands on deck kind of deal as opposed to 3 guys working down low while bob boughner and bryan allen putz around waiting to play defense again. the revolution is happening more in what you're asking of the defenseman. defensive responsibilities for forwards has been largely unaffected by that change. the bulk of the impact of the defense being more active are adjustments in transition responsibilities and falling into structure offensively. the goal is to have the attack start immediately regardless of who recovers the puck and meeting a certain skill threshold to make that possible.

it's a pretty logical transition that we've seen. the first thing we lost were the enforcers because they couldn't skate the game. then the league started to raise the standard expectation of skating a whole tier higher and that swallowed up a lot of the slower guys even if they had scoring capability. it became much harder for veterans to survive in that environment and the 35 plus crowd went extinct up front. the data driven teams started to see those changes playing out and tried to project what it meant for where the game would ultimately end up. basketball and football were similarly impacted by analytics. most football teams run a base offense of what used to be called the west coast offense that emphasized short completions over lower percentage deep throws. it changed position values considerably. runningback became a position of afterthought because fewer and fewer teams were running the ball on 1st and 2nd down consecutively and then attempting to pass for the first down on 3rd down. it was just statistically inefficient. wide receiver and cornerback values went through the ceiling. basketball's manifestation immensely favored the 3 point shot and athletic bigs who could run the floor. in turn, the players all started to share visual similarities because the more versatile players who could rotate and defend the traditionally "smaller" positions were more productive than guys who were solely rim protectors as the percentage of 3 point attempts climbs higher and higher. so back to football, teams started to realize how much more important it was to create pass rushing pressure and traded that off for effectiveness against the run so you have this entirely new position called "edge" that's not exactly a linebacker and not exactly a defensive end that create matchup nightmares for tackles. so what happens? tackles have to get smaller and faster in exchange for strength. are we starting to notice the trend? none of this means that the job of a tackle has changed, the goal is the same as it ever was but the means by which it's accomplished has changed considerably. that's the manifestation that this organization is projecting to happen among defensemen. the twitchy fast waterbug types that can maintain possession because of the inherent value of offensive possession making it impossible to be scored upon. carolina is attempting to expedite the evolution to the final form of every player on the ice having supreme puck handling skills because of how inefficient it is to have a cog in your wheel that can't complete the function and how that throws the machine. that's the projection that is creating a lot of interest in the scouting community that is drawing comments like "not sure it's going to work how they plan," etc. it's controversial today, but if it takes it's going to become the new standard. we obviously hope to extract a few championships from being early adapters to the trends that the dinosaurs refuse to acknowledge.

Spark notes please?

 

[MinJaBen]

not quite, but i can see how you would think that. my whole drum has been positionless hockey as it pertains to a full five man attack and being somewhat fluid with assignment changes as the defense activates more but that's still something i think is more of a difference in philosophy than role designation. the system requires the forwards to be more adaptive to compensating for the defense playing with heightened aggression, but their jobs devoid of that wrinkle are largely traditional. we are trying to make offense an all hands on deck kind of deal as opposed to 3 guys working down low while bob boughner and bryan allen putz around waiting to play defense again. the revolution is happening more in what you're asking of the defenseman. defensive responsibilities for forwards has been largely unaffected by that change. the bulk of the impact of the defense being more active are adjustments in transition responsibilities and falling into structure offensively. the goal is to have the attack start immediately regardless of who recovers the puck and meeting a certain skill threshold to make that possible.

it's a pretty logical transition that we've seen. the first thing we lost were the enforcers because they couldn't skate the game. then the league started to raise the standard expectation of skating a whole tier higher and that swallowed up a lot of the slower guys even if they had scoring capability. it became much harder for veterans to survive in that environment and the 35 plus crowd went extinct up front. the data driven teams started to see those changes playing out and tried to project what it meant for where the game would ultimately end up. basketball and football were similarly impacted by analytics. most football teams run a base offense of what used to be called the west coast offense that emphasized short completions over lower percentage deep throws. it changed position values considerably. runningback became a position of afterthought because fewer and fewer teams were running the ball on 1st and 2nd down consecutively and then attempting to pass for the first down on 3rd down. it was just statistically inefficient. wide receiver and cornerback values went through the ceiling. basketball's manifestation immensely favored the 3 point shot and athletic bigs who could run the floor. in turn, the players all started to share visual similarities because the more versatile players who could rotate and defend the traditionally "smaller" positions were more productive than guys who were solely rim protectors as the percentage of 3 point attempts climbs higher and higher. so back to football, teams started to realize how much more important it was to create pass rushing pressure and traded that off for effectiveness against the run so you have this entirely new position called "edge" that's not exactly a linebacker and not exactly a defensive end that create matchup nightmares for tackles. so what happens? tackles have to get smaller and faster in exchange for strength. are we starting to notice the trend? none of this means that the job of a tackle has changed, the goal is the same as it ever was but the means by which it's accomplished has changed considerably. that's the manifestation that this organization is projecting to happen among defensemen. the twitchy fast waterbug types that can maintain possession because of the inherent value of offensive possession making it impossible to be scored upon. carolina is attempting to expedite the evolution to the final form of every player on the ice having supreme puck handling skills because of how inefficient it is to have a cog in your wheel that can't complete the function and how that throws the machine. that's the projection that is creating a lot of interest in the scouting community that is drawing comments like "not sure it's going to work how they plan," etc. it's controversial today, but if it takes it's going to become the new standard. we obviously hope to extract a few championships from being early adapters to the trends that the dinosaurs refuse to acknowledge.

I think @MrazeksVengeance stole all of @Vagrant ’s capital letters.