2019-20 Roster Thread XIV: It's all about the sonnet

[Striiker]

Frost and Farabee have proven to be on a completely different level than the other prospects.

If our coaches/management can't see that or think that any performance in training camp or preseason is a valuable enough sample to decide differently, then we're in real trouble.

There's no way Rubtsov is the one who makes the team out of camp without a hefty dose of incompetence. It doesn't matter if he looks like a god and the others look awful... it's not real NHL games and it's not large enough of a sample to accurately judge. We have way too much other information that gives a reason to doubt it's the right move and a couple meaningless practices and mixed squad preseason games isn't enough to override that. Especially when you consider he just missed nearly a whole season with an injury.

 

[Larry44]

Frost and Farabee have proven to be on a completely different level than the other prospects.

If our coaches/management can't see that or think that any performance in training camp or preseason is a valuable enough sample to decide differently, then we're in real trouble.

There's no way Rubtsov is the one who makes the team out of camp without a hefty dose of incompetence. It doesn't matter if he looks like a god and the others look awful... it's not real NHL games and it's not large enough of a sample to accurately judge. We have way too much other information that gives a reason to doubt it's the right move and a couple meaningless practices and mixed squad preseason games isn't enough to override that. Especially when you consider he just missed nearly a whole season with an injury.

Again, the new AGM Flahr, just raved about Ruby's skill level a couple weeks ago. Just because fans have opinions about who should be on the roster doesn't mean that's the way it will happen at camp. Have you ever tried out for a hockey team? The players on the ice go hard, and they know who the best players are and who might be ready... or not. Look at the way Giroux talked about Hart's readiness - complete respect.

Many players have played their way onto the team out of seemingly nowhere by having a great camp. What happens at training camp really does matter as to who makes the team, much moreso than stats or fan expectations.

I know everyone wants Farabee and/or Frost on the team, but they might end up getting some AHL time, if the coaches think other guys who are older, stronger and more pro-ready will help the team more this fall. The team is desperate for a fast start. I would not be surprised to see both of them as Phantoms on opening night, but it's also possible they'll be Flyers. It's up to them and guys with whom they are competing. We'll see.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I could see both Farabee & Rubtsov making the team out of camp. I’m struggling to see Frost not getting some AHL time.

 

[Striiker]

Again, the new AGM Flahr, just raved about Ruby's skill level a couple weeks ago. Just because fans have opinions about who should be on the roster doesn't mean that's the way it will happen at camp. Have you ever tried out for a hockey team? The players on the ice go hard, and they know who the best players are and who might be ready... or not. Look at the way Giroux talked about Hart's readiness - complete respect.

Many players have played their way onto the team out of seemingly nowhere by having a great camp. What happens at training camp really does matter as to who makes the team, much moreso than stats or fan expectations.

I know everyone wants Farabee and/or Frost on the team, but they might end up getting some AHL time, if the coaches think other guys who are older, stronger and more pro-ready will help the team more this fall. The team is desperate for a fast start. I would not be surprised to see both of them as Phantoms on opening night, but it's also possible they'll be Flyers. It's up to them and guys with whom they are competing. We'll see.

I know what he said. It doesn’t mean he’s right.

And once again, what I said seems to be misinterpreted as predicting what will happen, when I’m actually saying what should happen.

I know they could f*** up and put him on the team... I’m saying why that would be stupid.

Forget the other prospects... it’d be a bad decision just for Rubtsovs development alone.

 

[deadhead]

What should happen is what AV thinks should happen, given he's got 1216 NHL games worth of HC experience, has taken teams to the playoffs 11 times (10 of his last 12 seasons coaching), finished 1st in his division 7 times and took two teams to the SC finals.

Doesn't mean AV can't make a mistake, but when a HC has a proven track record of success, I give him the benefit of the doubt ex ante.

AV 1st Ranger season, played Stepan (23), Kreider (22), J Moore (23), JT Miller (20) for 30 games.
AV 2nd Ranger seasons, played Hayes (22) out of college, JT Miller (21) 58 games, DuClair (19) 18 games.
He just didn't have good young players to throw in there (McIlrath?)

In the case of Frost (never played above the CHL) and Farabee (19 years old, still filling out), the idea that they're "sure things" to begin this season is absurd, Thomas who was physically advanced over Frost (listed at 6'0 188), had 26 ES points for St Louis playing 11:39, Laughton had 30 ES points playing 12:26 in a tougher situation, Pitlick had 26 ES points two years ago for Dallas playing 11:51.

It may well be AV looks at them in camp and decides they're no better RIGHT NOW than the veterans he has on the 3rd line and that they'd be better served playing 20 minutes a night in LHV for a couple months and then see how fast they progress.

Rubtsov, Twarynski, Bunnaman, Vorobyev and Laberge have NHL bodies, they just have to show they have NHL skills.

Nor is there any reason to get excited about October lineups, if a kid is red hot in LHV, he'll soon be in Philly.
And if you can't dominate the AHL, it's unlikely you're going to be a big upgrade as a rookie over Pitlick or Laughton.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

So this may have been discussed but what do we think the PP units look like this year? Any chance they try Nolan Patrick out on the top unit?

 

[Curufinwe]

I find the name calling directed at Bill to be undignified & unnecessary. Meltzer proudly defended unpopular players long before he started working for the Flyers. For example, he was saying Grossmann was an important and underrated part of the team right up until the day Hextall shipped him to Arizona. So I really don't go along with the idea that if he's talking up a guy like Pitlick, it's because he got an order to do so in the envelope with his pay check.

 

[Larry44]

I know what he said. It doesn’t mean he’s right.

And once again, what I said seems to be misinterpreted as predicting what will happen, when I’m actually saying what should happen.

I know they could **** up and put him on the team... I’m saying why that would be stupid.

Forget the other prospects... it’d be a bad decision just for Rubtsovs development alone.

I understood what you are saying, it's just my opinion that your opinion, and indeed all of our opinions, are irrelevant to what might, should or will happen on the ice in training camp.

The coaching staff is under the gun to win right off the bat, and I suspect they will prioritize getting some wins in Oct and Nov (for a change) over development, potential or anything else.

If Ruby works out with Provy again all summer, comes to camp stronger and faster, and plays lights out in camp, he could end up on the squad. The same logic applies to any number of guys fighting for a spot. Contract status plays into it, e.g. if NAK doesn't make the team, he could be lost on waivers/traded, so this could be his last chance. They won't waive Pitlick, but Andreeoff and Gabriel would be no loss if claimed - any interested team could have signed them themselves.

 

[Striiker]

I understood what you are saying, it's just my opinion that your opinion, and indeed all of our opinions, are irrelevant to what might, should or will happen in training camp.

The coaching staff is under the gun to win right off the bat, and I suspect they will prioritize getting some wins in Oct and Nov (for a change) over development, potential or anything else.

If Ruby works out with Provy again all summer, comes to camp stronger and faster, and plays lights out in camp, he could end up on the squad. The same logic applies to any number of guys fighting for a spot. Contract status plays into it, e.g. if NAK doesn't make the team, he could be lost on waivers/traded, so this could be his last chance. They won't waive Pitlick, but Andreeoff and Gabriel would be no loss if claimed - any interested team could have signed them themselves.

You say you understand what I'm saying, but the rest of your post makes it look like you don't because you're not even discussing the same topic I am. You're still stuck on the words "could" or "might" or "will", when they have nothing to do with what I'm saying.

I'm aware that my opinion has no effect on what will actually happen. I'm also not predicting what could/might/will happen - I'm aware of all of these possibilities - I'm pointing out why these possible outcomes would be a mistake.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

You don't spend 5+ years building a pipeline of high end youth to play f***ing pitlick on the THIRD line. That's outrageous.

Andreoff is another vandevelde. Not an NHL player.

It's cowardice and incompetent

 

[BringBackHakstol]

I find the name calling directed at Bill to be undignified & unnecessary. Meltzer proudly defended unpopular players long before he started working for the Flyers. For example, he was saying Grossmann was an important and underrated part of the team right up until the day Hextall shipped him to Arizona. So I really don't go along with the idea that if he's talking up a guy like Pitlick, it's because he got an order to do so in the envelope with his pay check.

Whether it's straight up shilling or not, playing up indefensible decisions reeks of being too close to the org and regurgitating trash ideas

 

[hatcher]

You don't spend 5+ years building a pipeline of high end youth to play ****ing pitlick on the THIRD line. That's outrageous.

Andreoff is another vandevelde. Not an NHL player.

It's cowardice and incompetent

Pat Maroon.

 

[Striiker]

I don't care if Meltzers comments have 0% influence from the team. That's not the point here.

The things he's said, the people he's defended and the way that he's defended them, is what kills his credibility.

 

[Curufinwe]

VdV wishes he could have scored 50+ points in an AHL season.

 

[Rebels57]

A lot would have to go right for Pitlick (and wrong for the team) for him to end up on the 3rd line. There are so many better options. I can understand wanting both Frost and Farabee to cut their teeth early on in the season with the Phantoms. Giroux got his start this way as well. So did many other players that have gone on to have fantastic careers. I can live with that.

However, that still leaves options that I believe are not only better players, BUT A BETTER FIT WITH NOLAN PATRICK, who is most likely lining up as 3C on opening. I'd rather see Laughton, NAK, or Rubstov in that spot for sure. Laughton because we know he's a better player than Pitlick at this point, and NAK / Ruby because they have a higher skill level that may mesh better with Patrick, we need to see what we have in them, and the 4th line isn't going to give them a chance to shine.

For all we know though, AV will try to go for a more balanced approach among the top 9 and we see something like..

Giroux - Couturier - Konecny
Prospect* - Hayes - Voracek
JVR - Patrick - Lindblom

*Rubstov, Farabee, Frost, NAK

Things tend to end up differently after camp then what we speculate over the summer.

 

[CapnZin]

A lot would have to go right for Pitlick (and wrong for the team) for him to end up on the 3rd line. There are so many better options. I can understand wanting both Frost and Farabee to cut their teeth early on in the season with the Phantoms. Giroux got his start this way as well. So did many other players that have gone on to have fantastic careers. I can live with that.

However, that still leaves options that I believe are not only better players, BUT A BETTER FIT WITH NOLAN PATRICK, who is most likely lining up as 3C on opening. I'd rather see Laughton, NAK, or Rubstov in that spot for sure. Laughton because we know he's a better player than Pitlick at this point, and NAK / Ruby because they have a higher skill level that may mesh better with Patrick, we need to see what we have in them, and the 4th line isn't going to give them a chance to shine.

For all we know though, AV will try to go for a more balanced approach among the top 9 and we see something like..

Giroux - Couturier - Konecny
Prospect* - Hayes - Voracek
JVR - Patrick - Lindblom

*Rubstov, Farabee, Frost, NAK

Things tend to end up differently after camp then what we speculate over the summer.

I like that set-up, however, the main question is how will he use the '2nd' and '3rd' line. Will there be a distinction? Is the '3rd' line going to be a prototypical checking line or will AV match the 2nd to the opposing 3rd and our 3rd to the opposing 2nd for a balanced approach. We, honestly, have 3 high end balanced lines.

In reality, I could also see JVR replacing TK on the first line for sure fire scoring. I think TK should be a first line staple, however, it wouldn't surprise me to see AV switch them out. Lindblom - Patrick - TK played well last year given their seldom ice-time together.

 

[FlyerNutter]

You don't spend 5+ years building a pipeline of high end youth to play ****ing pitlick on the THIRD line. That's outrageous.

Andreoff is another vandevelde. Not an NHL player.

It's cowardice and incompetent

It’s an organizational infatuation with try hard veterans. There is nothing wrong with not playing a kid if he isn’t ready but we have seen it more than enough times in the last few years with Sanheim and Myers in particular. There is more than enough reason to doubt the decisions of the all knowing old school NHL minds, but we shall see of course.

If they aren’t ready fine, but it seems that if a kid has a rough game or two they are immediately cast aside in favour of a piece of shit warm body.

 

[deadhead]

You don't spend 5+ years building a pipeline of high end youth to play ****ing pitlick on the THIRD line. That's outrageous.

Andreoff is another vandevelde. Not an NHL player.

It's cowardice and incompetent

Hyperbole city, Batman!

Cowardice? That's a strange term to use in this context.
There's nothing "brave" about rushing a prospect, foolhardy maybe, overly optimistic.

As far as "competence," when dealing with complex decisions with numerous unknowns, there's rarely a "right" decision, rather, different sets of upside and downside (maybe Frost blossoms, maybe he's over his head and his development is set back a year).

Pitlick isn't chopped liver.
Among all forwards the last two seasons (1000 TOI cutoff, 355 total), he's #256 in pp/60 at ES.
Just above Simmons #264, and Raffl #269. Ahead of Sissons #285, Lindberg #290, Cousins #300, Weal #311, J Carter #314.
Not great, not awful, your basic bottom six forward who belongs on the 4th line but is good enough to fill in on the 3rd line.
An upgrade over most of our bottom six forwards since 2010-11.

Patrick is #197, Lindblom #201, Laughton is #216, which puts them at the top of 3rd line scorers.

 

[Rebels57]

I like that set-up, however, the main question is how will he use the '2nd' and '3rd' line. Will there be a distinction? Is the '3rd' line going to be a prototypical checking line or will AV match the 2nd to the opposing 3rd and our 3rd to the opposing 2nd for a balanced approach. We, honestly, have 3 high end balanced lines.

In reality, I could also see JVR replacing TK on the first line for sure fire scoring. I think TK should be a first line staple, however, it wouldn't surprise me to see AV switch them out. Lindblom - Patrick - TK played well last year given their seldom ice-time together.

I personally think that Giroux - Couturier combo can use TK's speed and TK can use their intelligence, passing, and defensive awareness. It's a perfect line that I don't want to f*** with.

 

[NYCFlyer]

A lot would have to go right for Pitlick (and wrong for the team) for him to end up on the 3rd line. There are so many better options. I can understand wanting both Frost and Farabee to cut their teeth early on in the season with the Phantoms. Giroux got his start this way as well. So did many other players that have gone on to have fantastic careers. I can live with that.

However, that still leaves options that I believe are not only better players, BUT A BETTER FIT WITH NOLAN PATRICK, who is most likely lining up as 3C on opening. I'd rather see Laughton, NAK, or Rubstov in that spot for sure. Laughton because we know he's a better player than Pitlick at this point, and NAK / Ruby because they have a higher skill level that may mesh better with Patrick, we need to see what we have in them, and the 4th line isn't going to give them a chance to shine.

For all we know though, AV will try to go for a more balanced approach among the top 9 and we see something like..

Giroux - Couturier - Konecny
Prospect* - Hayes - Voracek
JVR - Patrick - Lindblom

*Rubstov, Farabee, Frost, NAK

Things tend to end up differently after camp then what we speculate over the summer.

This scenario makes more sense than playing Rubstov, Farabee or Frost out of position on their off wing as young rookies. How often did Lindblom play on his off wing?

I honestly don't get the we don't play the young guys narrative. In October our starting goalie, 50% of the D and 3 or 4 of our top nine will be 23 or under with lots more on the way.

 

[Rebels57]

This scenario makes more sense than playing Rubstov, Farabee or Frost out of position on their off wing as young rookies. How often did Lindblom play on his off wing?

I honestly don't get the we don't play the young guys narrative. In October our starting goalie, 50% of the D and 3 or 4 of our top nine will be 23 or under with lots more on the way.

Lindblom hasn't played much RW in the NHL but he played a full season at RW in the SHL and according to @Appleyard, does not see a big difference in adjusting from LW to RW and vice versa.

 

[NYCFlyer]

Lindblom hasn't played much RW in the NHL but he played a full season at RW in the SHL and according to @Appleyard, does not see a big difference in adjusting from LW to RW and vice versa.

Totally worth a try but having seen Pitlick play he isn't a scrub but he can't stay healthy. We have a very experienced coaching staff now with a new system. It wouldn't shock me in the least to see Farabee at 2LW, Lindblom at 3RW and Rubstov at 4C. Nor would I be upset with Lindblom at 3LW, Pitlick at 3RW and Laughton at 4C and the young guys starting the year and getting to know each other and winning at LHV. Let's see how they all do in camp.

 

[freakydallas13]

The only way I can see Ruby making the team (and I like him more than most here) over Frost and Farabee, is because they stick Ruby on the 4th line and he is better suited for that than either of the other 2.

 

[deadhead]

I expect lines to be juggled the first 20 games or so while AV figures out who is the best fit.
So it's very possible we see numerous combinations on the 3rd and 4th lines, depending on who breaks camp and who forces their way up at some point.

NAK and Andreoff are probably written in pencil as the #12/#13 forwards going into camp.
Raffl, Laughton and Pitlick are all candidates for the 3rd line (Laugton at LW/Lindblom RW).

The kids will get long looks in camp, someone may make the team like Vorobyev last year, but someone else could replace them a month into the season.

Nothing to get upset about, all you have to do is look at the potential LHV roster and realize the April lineup could look very different than the October lineup.

LHV forwards:

Two years ago: Lindblom, NAK, Vorobyev [Varone, Carey, Martel, MV, Conner, Knight, Bardeau, McDonald, Goul, Fazleev]

A year ago: Vorobyev, Rubtsov, Twarynski, Kase, NAK, Bunnaman [Carey, Conner, Froese, MV, Leier/Bailey, McDonald, Varone, Bardreau, Goul]

This year: Frost, Farabee, Ratcliffe, Rubtsov, Kase, Bunnaman, Vorobyev, Twarynski, Laberge, Strome, Sushko [Criscuolo, Gabriel]

 

[Striiker]

The only way I can see Ruby making the team (and I like him more than most here) over Frost and Farabee, is because they stick Ruby on the 4th line and he is better suited for that than either of the other 2.

I think that'd be awful for his development.

Bad CHL year -> tiny handful of AHL games -> out injured for most of a season -> about 10 minutes per night in the NHL?

Of all our prospects, he stands to gain the most from getting some big minutes in the AHL, both to prove himself and to get back up to speed after a lengthy absence from real hockey games.