2019-20 Roster Thread IV

[FLYguy3911]

My intention wasn't to blast Reilly. Reilly is an exceptionally good player.

But for someone to say Provy will never be as good as him is just wrong IMO. How he played 2 years ago was top tier level. Not to mention that many goals and points without grade A pp time is even more impressive. There's no reason to believe he can't get back to that level and then beyond.

I just can't picture Provorov flirting with 70 points no matter who he is on the ice with, but that is just my opinion. Sure there's more to being a great player than scoring, but it's hard to say Provorov is more skilled than Rielly and that makes up a large portion of player value.

Provorov's goals year-by-year: 6, 17, 7. 82 games all 3 years. Primo usage every year.

What's the outlier? What he did two seasons ago without scoring on the PP (we have to make it clear that he got plenty of PP time, he just wasn't effective) was impress by itself. But what good are performances like that, if they aren't sustainable? If you're penciling him in to be a 17 goal scorer year-after-year, you're probably going to be disappointed.

 

[deadhead]

Why would Provorov have to flirt with 70 points to be elite?
If he can continue to improve his defense, he'd be a top defenseman scoring 30-40 at ES.
Given his first three seasons, 25, 36, 24, 30-40 ES points is a reasonable expectation in a few years. He's only 22.

If you're top 10 on defense, you just have to be above average on offense to be a top 1st pair defenseman.
And suppressing scoring on the PK is as valuable as scoring on the PP.

In the age of advanced metrics, obsessing on scoring and ignoring defense is simply misguided.

 

[magnumpi]

Not that I want them to move Konecny, but if he's part of a trade there would be a significant piece coming back.

No way I trade TK
Moreover unless a great materializes I would not trade any of the young players including Ghost until they're given a chance under this real coaching staff.

 

[TCTC]

Provorov has been on the 2nd PP unit. No Giroux, no Voracek, no JVR. There's no player from that 2nd unit who had even 10 PP points.

 

[magnumpi]

At some point the league is going to have to adjust the salary cap for local and national taxes, otherwise Canadian teams are screwed, and high tax teams outside of LA and NY (where there are media opportunities that compensate) will struggle to compete.

personally I hate parity and salary caps.
I'd implement a mnimum and a maximum and if you go over a certain limit then you pay a tax.

for example
min - 60 million
max - 105 million
over 90 you pay a penalty.

I don't think a team should be penalized for building a great team.
I like having a handful of great teams.
And for selfish reasons this would mean the Flyers would go back to be the bridesmaid.

Better a bridesmaid than the hag not invited to the wedding.

 

[dingbathero]

A name who may have not been mentioned, Stralman.

I could see us going after a player like him, steady on the back end, a RHD to boot and has a bunch of experience.

edit: didn't realize he was with Vignon in NYR - so may not be suited for this team? ha!

 

[The Madrigal]

Why would Provorov have to flirt with 70 points to be elite?
If he can continue to improve his defense, he'd be a top defenseman scoring 30-40 at ES.
Given his first three seasons, 25, 36, 24, 30-40 ES points is a reasonable expectation in a few years. He's only 22.

If you're top 10 on defense, you just have to be above average on offense to be a top 1st pair defenseman.
And suppressing scoring on the PK is as valuable as scoring on the PP.

In the age of advanced metrics, obsessing on scoring and ignoring defense is simply misguided.

Wow, a very rare great post from you. People get way too obsessed with how many points DEFENSEman put up. Either way, at 22 there is no reason Provorov shouldn't settle in as a 40-50 point guy eventually.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Provorov has been on the 2nd PP unit. No Giroux, no Voracek, no JVR. There's no player from that 2nd unit who had even 10 PP points.

Provorov handles the puck more than anyone on that unit. There's no player on that unit that has been on the PP without Provorov for any extensive amount of time. Coincidence?

 

[The Madrigal]

A name who may have not been mentioned, Stralman.

I could see us going after a player like him, steady on the back end, a RHD to boot and has a bunch of experience.

edit: didn't realize he was with Vignon in NYR - so may not be suited for this team? ha!

I've brought him up as an option if they miss out on the big fish like Karlsson, Trouba, Spurgeon, etc.

 

[magnumpi]

It's a pet peeve of mine . Everyone thinks a D man has to be offensive to have great worth and i more look at the defensive side , you know the defence in front of the man part .
"D"efence man .

Any hockey guy would take Adam Foote over Sandish Ozilinsh any day of the week.

 

[The Madrigal]

Any hockey guy would take Adam Foote over Sandish Ozilinsh any day of the week.

Yep, and Provorov over Ghost.

 

[TCTC]

Provorov handles the puck more than anyone on that unit. There's no player on that unit that has been on the PP without Provorov for any extensive amount of time. Coincidence?

I'm not saying he's been good on the PP. He's hasn't. But he hasn't really had great players to work with either. Everyone on that unit was basically secondary scoring.

If he was on the 1st unit, he'd have more points. I think that's a fact.

 

[baudib1]

I'm not saying he's been good on the PP. He's hasn't. But he hasn't really had great players to work with either. Everyone on that unit was basically secondary scoring.

If he was on the 1st unit, he'd have more points. I think that's a fact.

Provorov is like the worst PP player in the league.

 

[TheKingPin]

I think Stamkos was a different situation though. He's their franchise player and he's never played for another team.

If they can keep Bob and only lose Panarin, I think they'd be better off keeping Duchene as well. Duchene said Panarin's and Bob's decision will have an impact on his decision as well. Going to be interesting.

There’s no way either stays at this point. Especially not Bob. But yes, if one stays it changes everything. Losing two elite players like that and you are in trouble.

Didn’t read Duchenes comments but don’t they seem like an easy way out of questions about his status?

At some point the league is going to have to adjust the salary cap for local and national taxes, otherwise Canadian teams are screwed, and high tax teams outside of LA and NY (where there are media opportunities that compensate) will struggle to compete.

Especially as you get more and more players headed to and staying in Florida, Nevada and Dallas. Tampa players, Panarin, Bob, and Stone is already a lot and reflective of recent choices, if it goes that way for cbus.

I just can't picture Provorov flirting with 70 points no matter who he is on the ice with, but that is just my opinion. Sure there's more to being a great player than scoring, but it's hard to say Provorov is more skilled than Rielly and that makes up a large portion of player value.

Provorov's goals year-by-year: 6, 17, 7. 82 games all 3 years. Primo usage every year.

What's the outlier? What he did two seasons ago without scoring on the PP (we have to make it clear that he got plenty of PP time, he just wasn't effective) was impress by itself. But what good are performances like that, if they aren't sustainable? If you're penciling him in to be a 17 goal scorer year-after-year, you're probably going to be disappointed.

Yea I’d say there is little chance at 17 goals again. But he could and likely will have higher than his first and third years this coming year. If ghost rebounds like he should and starts getting extra attention again, Provy could benefit a lot with how good he is at sneaking into high danger areas.

 

[baudib1]

Salary caps are not put in place to create parity, they're there to artificially keep salaries low and limit the number of teams who can compete for UFAs.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I'm not saying he's been good on the PP. He's hasn't. But he hasn't really had great players to work with either. Everyone on that unit was basically secondary scoring.

If he was on the 1st unit, he'd have more points. I think that's a fact.

You could say that about any player. Fact.

He's the worst statistical player on the PP since he entered the league. Literally the worst. And there's a gap between him and the next worst. The teammate excuse goes out the window. He's the "QB". He's supposed to make others better.

 

[46zone]

No way I trade TK
Moreover unless a great materializes I would not trade any of the young players including Ghost until they're given a chance under this real coaching staff.

I agree with you. I'm just saying, if Konecny is part of any trade, it would be for something significant. Like you said, something great would have to materialize.

 

[The Madrigal]

Provorov is like the worst PP player in the league.

King of hyperbole at it again.

 

[deadhead]

I suspect before Fletcher makes any moves, he'll sit down with AV (after he's had a chance to review game film from the last few years), and go down the roster and decide who fits and who should be kicked off the island.

My suspicion is that most of the kids will be graded "incomplete," and not be moved THIS summer, whereas veterans are more of a projectable quantity.

If AV finds a young player to be uncoachable, he's likely to be moved out next summer.

 

[FlyerNutter]

I agree with you. I'm just saying, if Konecny is part of any trade, it would be for something significant. Like you said, something great would have to materialize.

Flyers are at the point where I want nothing to do with depth. Or to me more specific, bringing in more of it. Raise the standards on the talent level required to be a Flyer.

Any trade needs to have them getting the best player involved in the deal heading their way. Hextall can shove his obsession with middle 6 two way forwards up his ass.

Talent is what I want.

 

[FLYguy3911]

King of hyperbole at it again.

How?

 

[deadhead]

Hextall wasn't obsessed with middle six forwards, he didn't add any, he added bottom six guys like Filppula, Lehtera, Weise because they were cheap (garnered picks and had short-term/low cost deals). And he scrapped the bottom of the barrel to fill out the roster. That's called "rebuilding."

Flyers do need depth, look at our bottom six and our third pair defensemen the past seven years - been there, done that.
Next year they can finally go twelve deep (assuming Frost and Farabee make the team) and six deep on defense.
But injuries happen, fortunately LHV should be loaded with young forwards and Schlemko and maybe MacDonald on defense, as well as Friedman/Hagg as your 7th/8th D-men.

Once you've built up depth, you can then look at upgrading at every spot.

 

[magnumpi]

Flyers are at the point where I want nothing to do with depth. Or to me more specific, bringing in more of it. Raise the standards on the talent level required to be a Flyer.

Any trade needs to have them getting the best player involved in the deal heading their way. Hextall can shove his obsession with middle 6 two way forwards up his ass.

Talent is what I want.

Agree, one of the first things in rebuilding is gaining surplus depth.

Once that's attained it's time to use that depth for better quality.

It's time for quality over quantity.
A depth motivated move is pointless.

 

[deadhead]

However, quality occurs at any point on the roster.
Say we add a veteran center as insurance for Frost and he becomes our 4C, moving Laughton to 4LW, and Raffl to 13th forward.
We've strengthened two spots and provided insurance for a third.

There are only a few top six caliber FAs, and in many cases, trading for a top six player will cost us a similar player (few teams trade veteran forwards for draft picks without garnering a replacement player). Most off seasons only a few top six/four players get traded.

Realistically, there's only one legitimate 2C in free agency, Duchene, both Hayes and Nelson are marginal 2Cs and are really better suited to a 3rd line role where they'd be above average.
So rather than overpay to shore up the 3rd line, you might go with a veteran bottom six patch who'd improve the quality of your depth.

It's not a matter of getting the best player but the right players - did JT make Toronto a better team when you account for the veterans let go to pay for him and the failure to shore up the defense?

 

[wasup]

Salary caps are not put in place to create parity, they're there to artificially keep salaries low and limit the number of teams who can compete for UFAs.

Really , wow just wow .