Still waiting for a single post saying what Ginning does well.
(I meant from one of the people adamantly defending him, by strictly talking about size and draft position, who we're 99.99999% sure haven't even watched him play )He seems to win most of his 50/50 battles
I just think a 19 y/o has a decent chance to improve on whatever deficiencies, like any other teenage prospect, so I'm willing to be a little open minded. I need more a lot more info before I'm going to write him off. Like a few more years worth.
This is blind hope. All skills are not equally likely to be developed in post-draft years. That's the entire problem.
There is a chance Ginning develops X or Y swing skill, but you're betting on him to be an outlier. If someone thinks he is one and has specific reasons for doing so, I have zero problem with that even though I won't agree. Sadly specificity seems to be in short supply in this case.
This is blind hope. All skills are not equally likely to be developed in post-draft years. That's the entire problem.
There is a chance Ginning develops X or Y swing skill, but you're betting on him to be an outlier. If someone thinks he is one and has specific reasons for doing so, I have zero problem with that even though I won't agree. Sadly specificity seems to be in short supply in this case.
Being open-minded is not hope. It’s delaying judgement. Of a 19-year-old prospect in this case. I have no reason to write him off as he can in-fact improve. If there were some injuries or setbacks or something more specific than stating certain skills are harder to improve than others, I could see the skepticism, but this is something else and seems a very ridged mindset.
There isn’t only one path to becoming an NHL player and all of them need a LOT of development to have any hope to make it after the top few prospects. It really just needs to play out and see where these guys are in a few years. Especially for the defensemen (and goalies). They take a lot of time in most cases.
Ginning will prob be an NHL player, unless he truly handles the puck like Kevin Marshall. I find that hard to believe though considering his prominent role for Sweden. Not really their MO for their D.
Being open-minded is not hope. It’s delaying judgement. Of a 19-year-old prospect in this case. I have no reason to write him off as he can in-fact improve. If there were some injuries or setbacks or something more specific than stating certain skills are harder to improve than others, I could see the skepticism, but this is something else and seems a very ridged mindset.
There isn’t only one path to becoming an NHL player and all of them need a LOT of development to have any hope to make it after the top few prospects. It really just needs to play out and see where these guys are in a few years. Especially for the defensemen (and goalies). They take a lot of time in most cases.
You can make every one of these criticisms about Morin, except for straight-line recovery speed. And yet Morin was voted the #9 prospect, with votes from people who think Ginning is indefensible at #20. Something is amiss.
- Rushed/inefficient with the puck on his stick.
- Decision making without the puck is not much better.
- Positional awareness is lacking, which compounds the first two problems as the combination of being mentally slow and physically awkward in tight/quick movements stack in the most unflattering way possible.
- He frequently takes poor angles when presented with speed to the outside and lacks the foot speed to make up for it.
He’s likely going to be an NHL player.
That I have to disagree with pretty strongly. I think the likely to be an NHLer cutoff is around 4 or 5 players, even as deep as the system is.
The complaints about Ginning’s hockey sense are greatly overblown, IMO.There’s a distinct difference between projection and writing a player off. As of today, he’s projecting as a limited #6/#5 NHL defenseman. He’s likely going to be an NHL player. What will (& currently has) held him back from being a truly effective defenseman is his hockey sense. I’m unaware of many instances where a player’s hockey sense improved significantly post-draft. There is also nothing wrong with judging a prospects current level of play. We do that for everyone else...what makes Ginning a special case (i.e. immune to criticism?)
Decision making with and without the puck, angles, positional awareness, etc., seems perfectly normal things to need to improve to get to the next level. How is this appreciably different than any of these other guys? How perfect is he supposed to be at 19? First rounder level? He’s about where you would expect at his draft position and age. Needs some work in some areas and time will tell.Again, no specifics. Your one tangible point is that he's 19 and that's too young to write anyone off. I agree. However, Defensemen peaking later on the average is something that has not turned out to be true when aging curves were examined at appropriately large scale. If you want the studies, I'm more than happy to provide them.
There's a difference between writing someone off and being skeptical about the level of development required in specific areas to be baseline functional in the NHL. For the record, here are my specific areas for skepticism with Ginning:
We need to account for both how far he needs to come in those areas and how difficult it is to improve in each of them if we're evaluating him as a prospect.
- Rushed/inefficient with the puck on his stick.
- Decision making without the puck is not much better.
- Positional awareness is lacking, which compounds the first two problems as the combination of being mentally slow and physically awkward in tight/quick movements stack in the most unflattering way possible.
- He frequently takes poor angles when presented with speed to the outside and lacks the foot speed to make up for it.
My IQ has taken a hit in this thread.
This whole argument seems to be more of a preference of style than anything. People on this forum don’t like Ginning’s game and would prefer they had drafted another finesse D instead.
Decision making with and without the puck, angles, positional awareness, etc., seems perfectly normal things to need to improve to get to the next level. How is this appreciably different than any of these other guys? How perfect is he supposed to be at 19? First rounder level? He’s about where you would expect at his draft position and age. Needs some work in some areas and time will tell.
If he is still doing the same dumb **** at 22 or so then hey, maybe he is a dummy like many seem to be painting him here. I’m going to continue to be open-minded about him for a while though since there is really no compelling reason to conclude much of anything at this point other than he is a teenage non first round prospect working through some stuff, like they all are.
Would I be correct at assuming the way you are weighting things all of the more puck skilled PMD types are going to grade out higher and the things they need to improve to make it are going to be ‘easier’? Like getting stronger, as well as being more-sound defensively (decision making with and without the puck, angles, positional awareness, etc.). This whole argument seems to be more of a preference of style than anything. People on this forum don’t like Ginning’s game and would prefer they had drafted another finesse D instead.